The Cygwin User Guide on path names

The Cygwin User Guide on path names

[Ken Brown]

The section on path names in the user guide 
(https://cygwin.com/cygwin-ug-net/using.html#using-pathnames) strikes me 
as misleading when it says in the first sentence, "Cygwin supports both 
POSIX- and Win32-style paths."  I think it would be better to say "The 
Cygwin DLL" and to emphasize that Cygwin applications do *not* 
necessarily support Win32 paths.  See

   https://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2016-08/msg00409.html

for a recent example where this has come up.  It's also come up in 
connection with git and emacs and probably many other applications.

The documentation also says, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible, 
is deprecated...."  I wonder if this should be strengthened to say 
something like, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible, is strongly 
deprecated and may be removed in a future release of Cygwin."

I'll be glad to prepare a documentation patch.

Ken

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Re: The Cygwin User Guide on path names

[Corinna Vinschen]

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On Aug 23 12:16, Ken Brown wrote:
> The section on path names in the user guide
> (https://cygwin.com/cygwin-ug-net/using.html#using-pathnames) strikes me as
> misleading when it says in the first sentence, "Cygwin supports both POSIX-
> and Win32-style paths."  I think it would be better to say "The Cygwin DLL"
> and to emphasize that Cygwin applications do *not* necessarily support Win32
> paths.  See
> 
>   https://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2016-08/msg00409.html
> 
> for a recent example where this has come up.  It's also come up in
> connection with git and emacs and probably many other applications.
> 
> The documentation also says, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible, is
> deprecated...."  I wonder if this should be strengthened to say something
> like, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible, is strongly deprecated and
> may be removed in a future release of Cygwin."
> 
> I'll be glad to prepare a documentation patch.

Yes, please.  Thanks for the offer,
Corinna

-- 
Corinna Vinschen                  Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to
Cygwin Maintainer                 cygwin AT cygwin DOT com
Red Hat

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Re: The Cygwin User Guide on path names

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Ken Brown!

> The documentation also says, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible,
> is deprecated...."  I wonder if this should be strengthened to say 
> something like, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible, is strongly 
> deprecated and may be removed in a future release of Cygwin."

That would be the day Cygwin die for me.


-- 
With best regards,
Andrey Repin
Wednesday, August 24, 2016 12:50:55

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: The Cygwin User Guide on path names

[Linda Walsh]

Andrey Repin wrote:
> Greetings, Ken Brown!
> 
>> The documentation also says, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible,
>> is deprecated...."  I wonder if this should be strengthened to say 
>> something like, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible, is strongly 
>> deprecated and may be removed in a future release of Cygwin."
> 
> That would be the day Cygwin die for me.
> -- 
> With best regards, Andrey Repin
> Wednesday, August 24, 2016 12:50:55
> Sorry for my terrible english...
---

Curious -- but why?  How do you make use of win32 pathnames
( "C:\bin" versus "/bin" or "/c/bin" or "/cygdrive/c/bin" )
depending on how your cygwin is configured).

I'm wondering if maybe there is a misunderstanding?

For the most part -- many cygwin apps may not work 
correctly if given a win32 path in the same place you'd
put a *nix path due to the backslashes being turned into
quote sequences.  I mean, you can't type:

> ls C:\bin 
  (instead of )
> ls /c/bin

and have it work, since the first would
turn into: "ls C:bin" (or if the \b is taken
as an escape sequence, it rings the bell, so it
could be translated as "ls C:\008in".  So I'm wondering
where you know the backslash form would always work and
wouldn't be mangled "somewhere"...?  (If you see what
I mean?)

*cheers*
-linda



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Re: The Cygwin User Guide on path names

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Linda Walsh!

> Andrey Repin wrote:
>> Greetings, Ken Brown!
>> 
>>> The documentation also says, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible,
>>> is deprecated...."  I wonder if this should be strengthened to say 
>>> something like, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible, is strongly 
>>> deprecated and may be removed in a future release of Cygwin."
>> 
>> That would be the day Cygwin die for me.
>> -- 
>> With best regards, Andrey Repin
>> Wednesday, August 24, 2016 12:50:55
>> Sorry for my terrible english...
> ---

> Curious -- but why?  How do you make use of win32 pathnames
> ( "C:\bin" versus "/bin" or "/c/bin" or "/cygdrive/c/bin" )
> depending on how your cygwin is configured).

I make use of win32 paths directly.
diff and grep are the most used tools.

> I'm wondering if maybe there is a misunderstanding?

I don't think so.

> For the most part -- many cygwin apps may not work 
> correctly if given a win32 path in the same place you'd
> put a *nix path due to the backslashes being turned into
> quote sequences.

That's too bad for such poor apps.

> I mean, you can't type:

>> ls C:\bin 
>   (instead of )
>> ls /c/bin

I don't really need LS, though… Not with a file list readily present in front
of me.
Though I sometimes use it to get a listing of current directory in a specific
format into a file or clipboard.

> and have it work, since the first would
> turn into: "ls C:bin" (or if the \b is taken
> as an escape sequence, it rings the bell, so it
> could be translated as "ls C:\008in".  So I'm wondering
> where you know the backslash form would always work and
> wouldn't be mangled "somewhere"...?  (If you see what
> I mean?)

Some apps (like diff/patch or grep) just work.
Other require a workaround (i.e. redirection in case of pngcrush).


-- 
With best regards,
Andrey Repin
Friday, August 26, 2016 05:48:42

Sorry for my terrible english...

Re: The Cygwin User Guide on path names

[Mark Hansen]

On 8/25/2016 7:53 PM, Andrey Repin wrote:
> Greetings, Linda Walsh!
>
>> Andrey Repin wrote:
>>> Greetings, Ken Brown!
>>>
>>>> The documentation also says, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible,
>>>> is deprecated...."  I wonder if this should be strengthened to say
>>>> something like, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible, is strongly
>>>> deprecated and may be removed in a future release of Cygwin."
>>>
>>> That would be the day Cygwin die for me.
>>> --
>>> With best regards, Andrey Repin
>>> Wednesday, August 24, 2016 12:50:55
>>> Sorry for my terrible english...
>> ---
>
>> Curious -- but why?  How do you make use of win32 pathnames
>> ( "C:\bin" versus "/bin" or "/c/bin" or "/cygdrive/c/bin" )
>> depending on how your cygwin is configured).
>
> I make use of win32 paths directly.
> diff and grep are the most used tools.
>
>> I'm wondering if maybe there is a misunderstanding?
>
> I don't think so.
>
>> For the most part -- many cygwin apps may not work
>> correctly if given a win32 path in the same place you'd
>> put a *nix path due to the backslashes being turned into
>> quote sequences.
>
> That's too bad for such poor apps.
>
>> I mean, you can't type:
>
>>> ls C:\bin
>>   (instead of )
>>> ls /c/bin

Can we differrentiate between C:/bin and C:\bin?

I've always used C:/bin. Using drive identifiers and UNIX-style path separators.

Is the proposal that this no longer be valid under cygwin?

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Re: The Cygwin User Guide on path names

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Mark Hansen!

> On 8/25/2016 7:53 PM, Andrey Repin wrote:
>> Greetings, Linda Walsh!
>>
>>> Andrey Repin wrote:
>>>> Greetings, Ken Brown!
>>>>
>>>>> The documentation also says, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible,
>>>>> is deprecated...."  I wonder if this should be strengthened to say
>>>>> something like, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible, is strongly
>>>>> deprecated and may be removed in a future release of Cygwin."
>>>>
>>>> That would be the day Cygwin die for me.
>>>> --
>>>> With best regards, Andrey Repin
>>>> Wednesday, August 24, 2016 12:50:55
>>>> Sorry for my terrible english...
>>> ---
>>
>>> Curious -- but why?  How do you make use of win32 pathnames
>>> ( "C:\bin" versus "/bin" or "/c/bin" or "/cygdrive/c/bin" )
>>> depending on how your cygwin is configured).
>>
>> I make use of win32 paths directly.
>> diff and grep are the most used tools.
>>
>>> I'm wondering if maybe there is a misunderstanding?
>>
>> I don't think so.
>>
>>> For the most part -- many cygwin apps may not work
>>> correctly if given a win32 path in the same place you'd
>>> put a *nix path due to the backslashes being turned into
>>> quote sequences.
>>
>> That's too bad for such poor apps.
>>
>>> I mean, you can't type:
>>
>>>> ls C:\bin
>>>   (instead of )
>>>> ls /c/bin

> Can we differrentiate between C:/bin and C:\bin?

> I've always used C:/bin. Using drive identifiers and UNIX-style path separators.

> Is the proposal that this no longer be valid under cygwin?

There's (hopefully) no such proposal. Only a warning that it may not work in
all cases.


Also, @ Linda, the string escaping is done by the shell before passing
arguments to the command, as I understand.
If I'm starting an application not from shell, the app, being a good citizen,
should not second-guess the arguments it is given.


-- 
With best regards,
Andrey Repin
Friday, August 26, 2016 15:29:53

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: The Cygwin User Guide on path names

[Mark Hansen]

On 8/25/2016 7:53 PM, Andrey Repin wrote:
> Greetings, Linda Walsh!
>
>> Andrey Repin wrote:
>>> Greetings, Ken Brown!
>>>
>>>> The documentation also says, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible,
>>>> is deprecated...."  I wonder if this should be strengthened to say
>>>> something like, "The usage of Win32 paths, though possible, is strongly
>>>> deprecated and may be removed in a future release of Cygwin."
>>>
>>> That would be the day Cygwin die for me.
>>> --
>>> With best regards, Andrey Repin
>>> Wednesday, August 24, 2016 12:50:55
>>> Sorry for my terrible english...
>> ---
>
>> Curious -- but why?  How do you make use of win32 pathnames
>> ( "C:\bin" versus "/bin" or "/c/bin" or "/cygdrive/c/bin" )
>> depending on how your cygwin is configured).
>
> I make use of win32 paths directly.
> diff and grep are the most used tools.
>
>> I'm wondering if maybe there is a misunderstanding?
>
> I don't think so.
>
>> For the most part -- many cygwin apps may not work
>> correctly if given a win32 path in the same place you'd
>> put a *nix path due to the backslashes being turned into
>> quote sequences.
>
> That's too bad for such poor apps.
>
>> I mean, you can't type:
>
>>> ls C:\bin
>>   (instead of )
>>> ls /c/bin

Can we differrentiate between C:/bin and C:\bin?

I've always used C:/bin. Using drive identifiers and UNIX-style path separators.

Is the proposal that this no longer be valid under cygwin?


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Re: The Cygwin User Guide on path names

[Linda Walsh]

Andrey Repin wrote:
> Also, @ Linda, the string escaping is done by the shell before passing
> arguments to the command, as I understand.
> If I'm starting an application not from shell, the app, being a good citizen,
> should not second-guess the arguments it is given.
---
	Absolutely.  Don't get me wrong.  I am NOT for removing 
functionality or compatibility.  If the Winpaths work for you
in your situation, I am all for keeping them working!  No reason
to break previous compatibility needlessly.  Way too often, developers 
are throwing away previous compat. because its convenient, to make
it harder for the user to maintain & control their machine.

	I usually find the forward slashes easier to use because
of the quoting issue -- as I used ls for an example.  Same would
apply to diff though.  I.e. -- in bash, if you type

  > diff C:\tmp\file1 C:\tmp\file2

It won't do what many might think it 'should', -- it will
try to compare "C:tmpfile1" & C:tmpfile2, with the backquotes
removed before diff or patch ever see the filenames.  

You have to be careful to add extra quoting if you use Winpaths,
like:

  > diff 'C:\tmp\file1' 'C:\tmp\file2'

If you used the unix path format, and have your cygdrive prefix =
'/', then you can type the above like:

  > diff /c/file{1,2}

Which involves alot less typing (if 'c' is your root drive and you are
on the same drive, you could leave off the '/c' above to get:

  > diff /file{1,2}

Which is even less typing... Personally, I like the shortest
format that works! But that doesn't mean longer forms shouldn't work
as well!

-l



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Re: The Cygwin User Guide on path names

[Mark Hansen]

On 8/28/2016 12:57 PM, Linda Walsh wrote:
> Andrey Repin wrote:
>> Also, @ Linda, the string escaping is done by the shell before passing
>> arguments to the command, as I understand.
>> If I'm starting an application not from shell, the app, being a good citizen,
>> should not second-guess the arguments it is given.
> ---
> 	Absolutely.  Don't get me wrong.  I am NOT for removing
> functionality or compatibility.  If the Winpaths work for you
> in your situation, I am all for keeping them working!  No reason
> to break previous compatibility needlessly.  Way too often, developers
> are throwing away previous compat. because its convenient, to make
> it harder for the user to maintain & control their machine.
>
> 	I usually find the forward slashes easier to use because
> of the quoting issue -- as I used ls for an example.  Same would
> apply to diff though.  I.e. -- in bash, if you type
>
>   > diff C:\tmp\file1 C:\tmp\file2

But I wouldn't expect this to work, because I know the backslashes are going to
be interpreted by the shell. It's nothing to do with the application (diff in
this case). To use a command shell, you need to know what that shell does.

When using Cygwin, I use paths like C:/tmp/file1 or /cygdrive/c/tmp/file1.
Never C:\tmp\file1 (unless I'm quoting/escaping the backslashes as needed).



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Re: The Cygwin User Guide on path names

[Mark Hansen]

On 8/28/2016 12:57 PM, Linda Walsh wrote:
> Andrey Repin wrote:
>> Also, @ Linda, the string escaping is done by the shell before passing
>> arguments to the command, as I understand.
>> If I'm starting an application not from shell, the app, being a good citizen,
>> should not second-guess the arguments it is given.
> ---
> 	Absolutely.  Don't get me wrong.  I am NOT for removing
> functionality or compatibility.  If the Winpaths work for you
> in your situation, I am all for keeping them working!  No reason
> to break previous compatibility needlessly.  Way too often, developers
> are throwing away previous compat. because its convenient, to make
> it harder for the user to maintain & control their machine.
>
> 	I usually find the forward slashes easier to use because
> of the quoting issue -- as I used ls for an example.  Same would
> apply to diff though.  I.e. -- in bash, if you type
>
>   > diff C:\tmp\file1 C:\tmp\file2

But I wouldn't expect this to work, because I know the backslashes are going to
be interpreted by the shell. It's nothing to do with the application (diff in
this case). To use a command shell, you need to know what that shell does.

When using Cygwin, I use paths like C:/tmp/file1 or /cygdrive/c/tmp/file1.
Never C:\tmp\file1 (unless I'm quoting/escaping the backslashes as needed).




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Re: The Cygwin User Guide on path names

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Linda Walsh!

> Andrey Repin wrote:
>> Also, @ Linda, the string escaping is done by the shell before passing
>> arguments to the command, as I understand.
>> If I'm starting an application not from shell, the app, being a good citizen,
>> should not second-guess the arguments it is given.
> ---
>         Absolutely.  Don't get me wrong.  I am NOT for removing 
> functionality or compatibility.  If the Winpaths work for you
> in your situation, I am all for keeping them working!  No reason
> to break previous compatibility needlessly.  Way too often, developers 
> are throwing away previous compat. because its convenient, to make
> it harder for the user to maintain & control their machine.

>         I usually find the forward slashes easier to use because
> of the quoting issue -- as I used ls for an example.  Same would
> apply to diff though.  I.e. -- in bash, if you type

  >> diff C:\tmp\file1 C:\tmp\file2

> It won't do what many might think it 'should', -- it will
> try to compare "C:tmpfile1" & C:tmpfile2, with the backquotes
> removed before diff or patch ever see the filenames.  

Yes, that's expected because of the shell you're using.
But if you're, say, in a file manager, and want to compare two files (or
directories) on the opposite panels...

Alt+Shift+D =>
view:<? diff -x "CVS" -x ".svn" -I "\$Id.*\$" -I "\$Rev.*\$" -I "\$Date.*\$" -I "\$Author.*\$" -I "\$URL.*\$" -I "^Orbiting .*$" !?$UnixDiff$Options ((-c, -b etc.)):?! --strip-trailing-cr -- "!#!\!.!" "!^!\!.!"
 => the results are in the internal viewer and you can conveniently browse
through them and cross-reference the files as needed.


-- 
With best regards,
Andrey Repin
Monday, August 29, 2016 16:52:03

Sorry for my terrible english...


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