Re: Please explain how to add to a thread in this mailing list

Re: Please explain how to add to a thread in this mailing list

[Thomas Taylor]

I'd like to thank all of you who responded with advice on how to use 
this mailing list, and how to reply to a post.  I'd especially like to 
thank Kaz Kylheku for his extensive and detailed tutorial on how to use 
the mailing list, written as a reply to my original post.  I encourage 
everyone to take a look at it.

Eliot Moss suggested I sign up for the list, as I had just gone ahead 
and posted what I think is a bug ("tcsh version 6.19.00-3 hangs on 
exit") without realizing I should first sign up.  I then subscribed to 
the list in digest form, but it's difficult to use (emails come as 
individual numbered attachments, which must be cross-referenced to the 
digest itself), and doesn't lend itself to back-and-forth use.  Greg 
Freemyer suggested that I instead subscribe such that I get each post as 
a separate email.

Jack (no last name) and Kaz both emphasized the importance of the 
"References" field in the message header.  I noticed the References 
field in the posts that were replies to my original post, but had no 
idea of how to incorporate this field into my replies to the replies. 
As I had not yet subscribed to the list, I had no emails to reply to. 
If I understand correctly, such emails would have included the essential 
References field in their message headers.  As I had not yet subscribed, 
I had no emails to reply to, and thus posted my replies (like this one) 
as top-level posts.

And Kaz, I should have been cutting and pasting quoted text from the 
archive, but unfortunately I wasn't.  That's why none of my replies 
(really completely new messages) quote the original message when replying.

Everybody, please correct me if I've gotten anything wrong.

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Re: Please explain how to add to a thread in this mailing list

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Thomas Taylor!

> I'd like to thank all of you who responded with advice on how to use 
> this mailing list, and how to reply to a post.  I'd especially like to 
> thank Kaz Kylheku for his extensive and detailed tutorial on how to use 
> the mailing list, written as a reply to my original post.  I encourage 
> everyone to take a look at it.

The problem is not the lists or subscription.
The problem is that you are using gmail web interface.
It's hopelessly broken and is unlikely to be fixed any time soon.

> Eliot Moss suggested I sign up for the list, as I had just gone ahead 
> and posted what I think is a bug ("tcsh version 6.19.00-3 hangs on 
> exit") without realizing I should first sign up.

This is not necessary. Most senior list members use normal mail clients and
you will receive replies to your messages even if not subscribed.

> I then subscribed to the list in digest form, but it's difficult to use
> (emails come as individual numbered attachments, which must be
> cross-referenced to the digest itself), and doesn't lend itself to
> back-and-forth use.  Greg Freemyer suggested that I instead subscribe such
> that I get each post as a separate email.

People use digest when they don't plan to participate in discussions, or if
they are using web mail with no ability or inclination to setup main filters
so that list messages end in a separate directory and not disturbing their
private mails.
It is still possible to maintain threading to some extent, if you have such
restricted subscription. The solution is to reply to your own sent messages
closest in thread to the one you want to reply to. This, however, won't work
if the thread was not started by you.

> Jack (no last name) and Kaz both emphasized the importance of the 
> "References" field in the message header.  I noticed the References 
> field in the posts that were replies to my original post, but had no 
> idea of how to incorporate this field into my replies to the replies. 
> As I had not yet subscribed to the list, I had no emails to reply to. 
> If I understand correctly, such emails would have included the essential 
> References field in their message headers.  As I had not yet subscribed, 
> I had no emails to reply to, and thus posted my replies (like this one) 
> as top-level posts.

But gmail web doesn't insert these headers at all. And your emails sent from
it will always end up breaking threading.


-- 
With best regards,
Andrey Repin
Friday, August 12, 2016 13:51:11

Sorry for my terrible english...


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RE: Please explain how to add to a thread in this mailing list

[Nellis, Kenneth]

Alternatively,

From: Andrey Repin 

> People use digest when they don't plan to participate in discussions, or if
> they are using web mail with no ability or inclination to setup main filters
> so that list messages end in a separate directory and not disturbing their private mails.

I subscribe to the digest, I do participate in discussions from time to
time, and I don't use a web mail interface.

I review the postings through the cygwin website. When I want to reply,
I click on the "Other format: [Raw text]" link, which displays some sort of
message ID. For example, the message to which I am replying now has the
number 204476, which is obtained from the first line of the target of the
raw text link:

From cygwin-return-204476-listarch-cygwin=sourceware dot org at cygwin dot com Fri Aug 12 11:05:19 2016

Then, look for that message in the digest and reply to that. (This is easy
in Outlook; can't talk to other e-mail readers.) Because it's a digest, you 
may not yet have it, but you can ask for it simply by sending an e-mail to 
<cygwin-get.204476@cygwin.com>.

It is a little awkward, but it shows the love.

--Ken Nellis

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RE: Please explain how to add to a thread in this mailing list

[Lester Ingber]

Since gmail inserts extra characters that are not recognized as text, I
am using mutt.

mutt does not permit adding References: headers.  Instead, I seem to be
OK getting
"Message-ID: <...>"
from the Raw link, and changing this to
"In-Reply-To: <...>"

Is there a better/different way of replying to cygwin posts?

Lester


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Re: Please explain how to add to a thread in this mailing list

[Gary Johnson]

On 2016-12-21, Lester Ingber wrote:
> Since gmail inserts extra characters that are not recognized as text, I
> am using mutt.
> 
> mutt does not permit adding References: headers.  Instead, I seem to be
> OK getting
> "Message-ID: <...>"
> from the Raw link, and changing this to
> "In-Reply-To: <...>"
> 
> Is there a better/different way of replying to cygwin posts?

If you've told mutt that you are subscribed to the cygwin list by
putting

    subscribe cygwin

in your muttrc file, then mutt should generate the appropriate
headers automatically when you reply to the list with the 'L'
command.

In this reply, for example, I see that mutt automatically added

    In-Reply-To: <20161221202630.GA14876@ingber.com>

as well as the From:, To: and Subject: headers.

For more on this, see the mutt manual, section 12 Mailing Lists and
section 5.4 Miscellaneous Functions, the <list-reply> function.

Regards,
Gary


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Re: Please explain how to add to a thread in this mailing list

[Linda Walsh]

Andrey Repin wrote:
> The problem is not the lists or subscription.
> The problem is that you are using gmail web interface.
> It's hopelessly broken and is unlikely to be fixed any time soon.
---
While it's possible the gmail web interface can be misconfigured,
I find that it usually redirects replies consistently with
what I'm wanting.  

Though, of note -- I'd have to test as I don't usually use the
gmail interface, it's _probable_ that if you hit 'reply' to a user
in the gmail-lists interface, that it will reply to the group
instead of to the user.

There have been different interfaces on google for reading
'email' and those interfaces have changed over time.  But at
some point, for example, simply hitting reply might go to the
group in the google-lists interface, but would go to a single
user in the mail (not list) interface.

Lists are built on top of the email interface, and different
email readers don't always use the same conventions for these
things -- often because people want different behaviors in different
situations.

How a list is displayed, or if it is displayed as a list at all, is
determined by your email reader.

References are used by email-processing software to allow 
the display of 'threaded conversations'.  Reference headers
headers in email are usually hidden because they intended
to be read and added by the software -- not by users.

Since I don't use gmail as my primary email client, I'm not
familiar with all of its configuration options -- but the 
best thing to do is to look at the help for the software you are
using to read & write emails to users and to groups.  

I find that thunderbird's interface works best for me so I have
my gmail address(es) set to forward email to my ISP user address.
Then I have thunderbird set to use send emails out to specific
addresses and/or use different from-addresses based on where 
the responded-to email came from.  In all of these cases, though
they take a while to get used to -- and you have to keep up with
changes in your software.

I don't know, but I don't think cygwin is hosted as a google group,
in which case, at the bottom of each email are directions for
help and questions specific to cygwin:

Documentation:         http://cygwin.com/docs.html   
FAQ:                   http://cygwin.com/faq/

Good luck!
-Linda


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Re: Please explain how to add to a thread in this mailing list

[Thomas Taylor]

Thank you for responding to my post.  I think I asked the wrong 
question.  What I really want to know is how to use this mailing list 
and others like it.  I'm new at this, and can't find any instructions 
anywhere.  Such lists must have become part of the culture, and I must 
have missed school that day.  I'm able to create a post, but don't know 
how to reply to one.  Somehow I got the feeling that I should only reply 
to the mailing list, rather than directly to the person (like you) who 
responded to my post.  I don't get responses via email, and don't even 
know if I should.  Instead, I check for them periodically on the web 
page for the mailing list archive.  If I find a response, I don't know 
the right way to reply.


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Re: Please explain how to add to a thread in this mailing list

[Greg Freemyer]

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Thomas Taylor <tayloth@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you for responding to my post.  I think I asked the wrong question.
> What I really want to know is how to use this mailing list and others like
> it.  I'm new at this, and can't find any instructions anywhere.  Such lists
> must have become part of the culture, and I must have missed school that
> day.  I'm able to create a post, but don't know how to reply to one.
> Somehow I got the feeling that I should only reply to the mailing list,
> rather than directly to the person (like you) who responded to my post.  I
> don't get responses via email, and don't even know if I should.  Instead, I
> check for them periodically on the web page for the mailing list archive.
> If I find a response, I don't know the right way to reply.
>
>
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>

Are you subscribed such that you get each email as a separate email?

If so, all you have to do is reply.

Reply all s normally fine, but I've been on lists with various rules
(netiquettes).

I suspect your issue is how you subscribed to the list.

Greg

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Re: Please explain how to add to a thread in this mailing list

[Jack]

On 2016.08.11 22:13, Greg Freemyer wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Thomas Taylor <tayloth@gmail.com>  
> wrote:
> > Thank you for responding to my post.  I think I asked the wrong  
> question.
> > What I really want to know is how to use this mailing list and  
> others like
> > it.  I'm new at this, and can't find any instructions anywhere.   
> Such lists
> > must have become part of the culture, and I must have missed school  
> that
> > day.  I'm able to create a post, but don't know how to reply to one.
> > Somehow I got the feeling that I should only reply to the mailing  
> list,
> > rather than directly to the person (like you) who responded to my  
> post.  I
> > don't get responses via email, and don't even know if I should.   
> Instead, I
> > check for them periodically on the web page for the mailing list  
> archive.
> > If I find a response, I don't know the right way to reply.
> 
> Are you subscribed such that you get each email as a separate email?
> 
> If so, all you have to do is reply.
> 
> Reply all s normally fine, but I've been on lists with various rules
> (netiquettes).
> 
> I suspect your issue is how you subscribed to the list.
> 
> Greg
> 
That also depends on you email software.  In most cases, Greg is right,  
and you can just hit "reply".  However, in some cases, the combination  
of the list software and you email software knows you can "Reply to  
group" which is different - it replies to the list address, and not to  
the individual who sent the message.  Unfortunately, there is not  
consistency here, so you have to learn how the lists you subscribe to  
identify themselves, and how you individual email software deals with  
that.  For example, I need to "G" or "Reply-group" rather than just  
"Reply".  The real issue is simply that you need to pay attention to  
all the "To:" and "CC:" headers before you hit "Send".
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Re: Please explain how to add to a thread in this mailing list

[Kaz Kylheku]

On 11.08.2016 17:44, Thomas Taylor wrote:
> Thank you for responding to my post.  I think I asked the wrong
> question.  What I really want to know is how to use this mailing list
> and others like it.  I'm new at this, and can't find any instructions
> anywhere.  Such lists must have become part of the culture, and I must
> have missed school that day.  I'm able to create a post, but don't know
> how to reply to one.

On pretty much any mailing list, you can use "reply all".

The most important thing that is going wrong on your end is that
your replies are lacking a References: header which cites the
Message-ID: values obtained from postings in the thread.

These message ID references are actually what organizes the
message objects into threads; it's how mail user agents and
archivers can reconstruct the conversation tree.

> Somehow I got the feeling that I should only reply
> to the mailing list, rather than directly to the person (like you) who
> responded to my post.

Some mailing lists (like this one) are configured such that when
you reply to a list posting that you received from the list robot,
a list reply occurs whether or not you use "reply" or "reply all".

This is because the mailing list robot rewrites the From: headers
of the postings which it replicates so that it appears to be
the author.

This is very useful when lists are expected to be used by kindergarten
children rather than grown-ups, because it steers the users to the
common behavior of keeping the conversation in the list, without
those users having to understand e-mail, mailing lists, or which
reply button to use.

(In some modern e-mail clients, a third way of replying has
also appeared, namely "reply list", I just want to mention.
It's an unnecessary feature with an unclear justification
that appears to emanate from a deep-rooted misunderstanding
of e-mail.)

"Reply all" works in most circumstances, regardless of how mailing
lists are configured.

In the classic mailing list that doesn't rewrite From: lines,
nor assert the Reply-To: header, you must use
"Reply All", otherwise the reply will only go to the originator.

"Reply All" also honors the Cc: line. Your reply is targetted to
everyone in the To: and Cc:, which might include some parties who
are not subscribers of the mailing list, but are "in the loop"
of that particular conversation.

> I don't get responses via email, and don't even
> know if I should.

If you're subscribed to the list, you should see them; if
you aren't, there is some mail delivery problem.

> Instead, I check for them periodically on the web
> page for the mailing list archive.  If I find a response, I don't know
> the right way to reply.

Replying via the archive is difficult, because it's not
set up for that. Some better archivers have such a feature;
I use one called "Lurker" on my mailing lists. You can
simply click on a reply button in the web archive, and it
redirects to your configured mail program, passing the original
text and other pieces of information as URL parameters.

If I want to reply to a conventionally archived mailing list
posting, I copy the raw text version. Then do some editing
to restore certain masked syntax like "foo dot bar" to "foo.bar"
and "foo at bar" to "foo@bar", in the headers only.
I also take care to edit the mbox-format "From <whoever@wherever> ..."
line to include the colon after the From, as is required
in the regular RFC 822 format.

Then I telnet to port 25 of my mail server, compose an envelope
from and to myself, and copy and paste that raw e-mail as
the SMTP DATA. It arrives in my inbox as if the list had sent
it to me; and I can reply to it in the conventional way.
Sometimes this method generates a Cc: to the list owner;
that has to be removed, either when composing or when
editing the raw text before SMTP.

I have the feeling you might be cutting and pasting quoted
text from the archive and composing new messages, which is why
your replies are lacking the References: header. The archiver
is able to infer that this is going on, and is threading your
replies anyway, under a node marked "<Possible follow-ups>".
It's probably figuring this out based on some heuristics involving
the common Subject: line and perhaps some fuzzy matching
on pieces of quoted text.

[I'm adding you to the Cc: list in hopes that perhaps direct
mail delivery from me-to-you will work, since you aren't getting
list traffic.]



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Please explain how to add to a thread in this mailing list

[Thomas Taylor]

I tried to reply to the person who replied to my original post.  I did 
this by sending an email to this mailing list, with "RE: <original 
subject line>" as the new subject line.  The mailing list took this to 
be a reply to my original post, rather than a reply to the person who 
replied to my original post.  Should I have used "RE: RE: <original 
subject line" instead?

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Re: Please explain how to add to a thread in this mailing list

[Eliot Moss]

On 8/11/2016 7:28 PM, Thomas Taylor wrote:
> I tried to reply to the person who replied to my original post.  I did this by sending an email to
> this mailing list, with "RE: <original subject line>" as the new subject line.  The mailing list
> took this to be a reply to my original post, rather than a reply to the person who replied to my
> original post.  Should I have used "RE: RE: <original subject line" instead?

No -- you should look at the addressees in the mail and responder
only to the sender, not the list, if that's what you want ...

But you ASKED a different question: how to add a (presumably new)
thread to the LIST.  I believe you simply need to send a new message
or change the subject more, and not use RE: ...    Eliot Moss

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Re: Please explain how to add to a thread in this mailing list

[Jack]

On 2016.08.11 19:37, Eliot Moss wrote:
> On 8/11/2016 7:28 PM, Thomas Taylor wrote:
>> I tried to reply to the person who replied to my original post.  I  
>> did this by sending an email to
>> this mailing list, with "RE: <original subject line>" as the new  
>> subject line.  The mailing list
>> took this to be a reply to my original post, rather than a reply to  
>> the person who replied to my
>> original post.  Should I have used "RE: RE: <original subject line"  
>> instead?
> 
> No -- you should look at the addressees in the mail and responder
> only to the sender, not the list, if that's what you want ...
> 
> But you ASKED a different question: how to add a (presumably new)
> thread to the LIST.  I believe you simply need to send a new message
> or change the subject more, and not use RE: ...    Eliot Moss

Also note that most email threading happens using headers which are  
rarely seen by humans (using the internal message id's) so if you reply  
to a list message, even if you change the subject completely, many  
email programs will still indent it under the message you replied to.   
Whether those headers are set correctly depends on your email software  
(although most seem to do the right thing.)

Also note that it is not the mailing list which determines threading.   
It's all done at display time by the software reading the messages,  
whether that's your local email software (thunderbird, kmail, ...) or  
some web email interface.

Jack
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