Setup shows errors from gnuplot-base.dash and python38-devel.sh

Setup shows errors from gnuplot-base.dash and python38-devel.sh

[Doug Henderson]

When running setup-x86_64.exe version 2.908 (64-bit) I get errors after rebase:

Package: _/gnuplot-base
    gnuplot-base.dash exit code 2
Package: _/Unknown package
    python38-devel.sh exit code 2

The first error message occurred when I installed all pending packages
this morning. I hoped to heal the problem by reinstalling the
installed gnuplot packages. Now I get both the messages.

$ uname -a
CYGWIN_NT-10.0 mars 3.2.0(0.340/5/3) 2021-03-29 08:42 x86_64 Cygwin

> ver
Microsoft Windows [Version 10.0.19043.1110]

Win 10 Pro

Any assistance is appreciated.

TIA
Doug

-- 
Doug Henderson, Calgary, Alberta, Canada - from gmail.com

Re: Setup shows errors from gnuplot-base.dash and python38-devel.sh

[Achim Gratz]

Doug Henderson via Cygwin writes:
> The first error message occurred when I installed all pending packages
> this morning. I hoped to heal the problem by reinstalling the
> installed gnuplot packages. Now I get both the messages.

If you look in /var7Log/setup.log.full you should be able to see what
error messages, if any, were recorded.

The gnuplot related script should just set up the current alternative
for "gnuplot" to use, but something on your system seems to prevent
that from happening.  You can also run the script in sh (you must tell
the shell to source it) and should get the same error (most likely).


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

Waldorf MIDI Implementation & additional documentation:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfDocs

Re: Setup shows errors from gnuplot-base.dash and python38-devel.sh

[Marco Atzeri]

On 14.07.2021 21:02, Achim Gratz wrote:
> Doug Henderson via Cygwin writes:
>> The first error message occurred when I installed all pending packages
>> this morning. I hoped to heal the problem by reinstalling the
>> installed gnuplot packages. Now I get both the messages.
> 
> If you look in /var7Log/setup.log.full you should be able to see what
> error messages, if any, were recorded.
> 
> The gnuplot related script should just set up the current alternative
> for "gnuplot" to use, but something on your system seems to prevent
> that from happening.  You can also run the script in sh (you must tell
> the shell to source it) and should get the same error (most likely).
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Achim.
> 

Hi Doug,

any error running directly
   /etc/postinstall/python38-devel.sh

After that the following commands should produce
somthing similar to :

$ alternatives --display 2to3
2to3 - status is auto.
  link currently points to /usr/bin/2to3-3.8
/usr/bin/2to3-3.8 - priority 38
/usr/bin/2to3-3.6 - priority 36
/usr/bin/2to3-3.7 - priority 37
Current `best' version is /usr/bin/2to3-3.8.

  $ alternatives --display python3-config
python3-config - status is auto.
  link currently points to /usr/bin/python3.8-config
/usr/bin/python3.8-config - priority 38
/usr/bin/python3.6-config - priority 36
/usr/bin/python3.7-config - priority 37
Current `best' version is /usr/bin/python3.8-config.

Re: Setup shows errors from gnuplot-base.dash and python38-devel.sh

[Doug Henderson]

On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:03, Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> wrote:
>
> Doug Henderson via Cygwin writes:
> > The first error message occurred when I installed all pending packages
> > this morning. I hoped to heal the problem by reinstalling the
> > installed gnuplot packages. Now I get both the messages.
>
> If you look in /var7Log/setup.log.full you should be able to see what
> error messages, if any, were recorded.
>
> The gnuplot related script should just set up the current alternative
> for "gnuplot" to use, but something on your system seems to prevent
> that from happening.  You can also run the script in sh (you must tell
> the shell to source it) and should get the same error (most likely).

When I do that in an elevated shell:

$ cd /etc/postinstall/

$ cat gnuplot-base.dash
/usr/sbin/alternatives --install /usr/bin/gnuplot gnuplot
/usr/bin/gnuplot-base.exe 10

$ . gnuplot-base.dash
failed to read link /usr/bin/gnuplot: No such file or directory
failed to link /usr/bin/gnuplot -> /etc/alternatives/gnuplot: No such
file or directory

$

These are the same messages as I find in "/var/Log/setup.log.full".

$ ls -l /usr/bin/gnuplot*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 Admin None 1444371 Jun 12 03:40 /usr/bin/gnuplot-base.exe

I don't know enough about alternatives to diagnose this problem.

Doug

-- 
Doug Henderson, Calgary, Alberta, Canada - from gmail.com

Re: Setup shows errors from gnuplot-base.dash and python38-devel.sh

[Ken Brown]

On 7/14/2021 5:08 PM, Doug Henderson via Cygwin wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:03, Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> wrote:
>>
>> Doug Henderson via Cygwin writes:
>>> The first error message occurred when I installed all pending packages
>>> this morning. I hoped to heal the problem by reinstalling the
>>> installed gnuplot packages. Now I get both the messages.
>>
>> If you look in /var7Log/setup.log.full you should be able to see what
>> error messages, if any, were recorded.
>>
>> The gnuplot related script should just set up the current alternative
>> for "gnuplot" to use, but something on your system seems to prevent
>> that from happening.  You can also run the script in sh (you must tell
>> the shell to source it) and should get the same error (most likely).
> 
> When I do that in an elevated shell:
> 
> $ cd /etc/postinstall/
> 
> $ cat gnuplot-base.dash
> /usr/sbin/alternatives --install /usr/bin/gnuplot gnuplot
> /usr/bin/gnuplot-base.exe 10
> 
> $ . gnuplot-base.dash
> failed to read link /usr/bin/gnuplot: No such file or directory
> failed to link /usr/bin/gnuplot -> /etc/alternatives/gnuplot: No such
> file or directory

Something seems to be confusing 'alternatives'.  Can you show a listing of 
/etc/alternatives?

Ken

Re: Setup shows errors from gnuplot-base.dash and python38-devel.sh

[Doug Henderson]

On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 16:33, Ken Brown via Cygwin <cygwin@cygwin.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/14/2021 5:08 PM, Doug Henderson via Cygwin wrote:
> > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:03, Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> wrote:
> >>
> >> Doug Henderson via Cygwin writes:
> >>> The first error message occurred when I installed all pending packages
> >>> this morning. I hoped to heal the problem by reinstalling the
> >>> installed gnuplot packages. Now I get both the messages.
> >>
> >> If you look in /var7Log/setup.log.full you should be able to see what
> >> error messages, if any, were recorded.
> >>
> >> The gnuplot related script should just set up the current alternative
> >> for "gnuplot" to use, but something on your system seems to prevent
> >> that from happening.  You can also run the script in sh (you must tell
> >> the shell to source it) and should get the same error (most likely).
> >
> > When I do that in an elevated shell:
> >
> > $ cd /etc/postinstall/
> >
> > $ cat gnuplot-base.dash
> > /usr/sbin/alternatives --install /usr/bin/gnuplot gnuplot
> > /usr/bin/gnuplot-base.exe 10
> >
> > $ . gnuplot-base.dash
> > failed to read link /usr/bin/gnuplot: No such file or directory
> > failed to link /usr/bin/gnuplot -> /etc/alternatives/gnuplot: No such
> > file or directory
>
> Something seems to be confusing 'alternatives'.  Can you show a listing of
> /etc/alternatives?

$ cd /etc/alternatives/

$ ls -l
total 2.0K
lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  35 Oct  3  2017 automake-doc ->
/usr/share/info/automake1.9.info.gz
lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  19 Jun 16 17:48 lua -> /usr/bin/lua5.3.exe*
lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  31 Jun 16 17:48 lua.1.gz ->
/usr/share/man/man1/lua5.3.1.gz
lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  20 Jun 16 17:48 luac -> /usr/bin/luac5.3.exe*
lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  32 Jun 16 17:48 luac.1.gz ->
/usr/share/man/man1/luac5.3.1.gz
lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  15 Jun  5 08:46 pip3 -> /usr/bin/pip3.8*
lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  22 Jun 16 07:34 python -> /usr/bin/python3.8.exe*
-rw-r--r-- 1 Admin None 163 Apr  4  2013 README

$ ls -ld .
drwxr-xr-x+ 1 Admin None 0 Jun 16 17:48 ./

$ lsacl /etc/alternatives
[u::rwx,g::r-x,o::r-x/u::rwx,g::r-x,o::r-x] /etc/alternatives

$ icacls /etc/alternatives/
drwxr-xr-x+ 1 Admin None 0 Jun 16 17:48 /etc/alternatives/
C:\cygwin64\etc\alternatives xxxx\Admin:(F)
                             xxxx\None:(RX)
                             Everyone:(RX)
                             CREATOR OWNER:(OI)(CI)(IO)(F)
                             CREATOR GROUP:(OI)(CI)(IO)(RX)
                             Everyone:(OI)(CI)(IO)(RX)
BTW:
$ where icacls
icacls is a function
icacls ()
{
    local target;
    ls -hF --color=auto --color=none --indicator-style=none -dl $(
cygpath -a "$1" );
    target="$( cygpath -aw "$1" )";
    $( cygpath -u 'C:\Windows\System32\icacls.exe' ) "$target" /Q |
sed -e '/^Succ/d'
}

Hope this helps with the diagnosis.
Doug



-- 
Doug Henderson, Calgary, Alberta, Canada - from gmail.com

Re: Setup shows errors from gnuplot-base.dash and python38-devel.sh

[Ken Brown]

On 7/14/2021 9:20 PM, Doug Henderson via Cygwin wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 16:33, Ken Brown via Cygwin <cygwin@cygwin.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 7/14/2021 5:08 PM, Doug Henderson via Cygwin wrote:
>>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:03, Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doug Henderson via Cygwin writes:
>>>>> The first error message occurred when I installed all pending packages
>>>>> this morning. I hoped to heal the problem by reinstalling the
>>>>> installed gnuplot packages. Now I get both the messages.
>>>>
>>>> If you look in /var7Log/setup.log.full you should be able to see what
>>>> error messages, if any, were recorded.
>>>>
>>>> The gnuplot related script should just set up the current alternative
>>>> for "gnuplot" to use, but something on your system seems to prevent
>>>> that from happening.  You can also run the script in sh (you must tell
>>>> the shell to source it) and should get the same error (most likely).
>>>
>>> When I do that in an elevated shell:
>>>
>>> $ cd /etc/postinstall/
>>>
>>> $ cat gnuplot-base.dash
>>> /usr/sbin/alternatives --install /usr/bin/gnuplot gnuplot
>>> /usr/bin/gnuplot-base.exe 10
>>>
>>> $ . gnuplot-base.dash
>>> failed to read link /usr/bin/gnuplot: No such file or directory
>>> failed to link /usr/bin/gnuplot -> /etc/alternatives/gnuplot: No such
>>> file or directory
>>
>> Something seems to be confusing 'alternatives'.  Can you show a listing of
>> /etc/alternatives?
> 
> $ cd /etc/alternatives/
> 
> $ ls -l
> total 2.0K
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  35 Oct  3  2017 automake-doc ->
> /usr/share/info/automake1.9.info.gz
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  19 Jun 16 17:48 lua -> /usr/bin/lua5.3.exe*
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  31 Jun 16 17:48 lua.1.gz ->
> /usr/share/man/man1/lua5.3.1.gz
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  20 Jun 16 17:48 luac -> /usr/bin/luac5.3.exe*
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  32 Jun 16 17:48 luac.1.gz ->
> /usr/share/man/man1/luac5.3.1.gz
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  15 Jun  5 08:46 pip3 -> /usr/bin/pip3.8*
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  22 Jun 16 07:34 python -> /usr/bin/python3.8.exe*
> -rw-r--r-- 1 Admin None 163 Apr  4  2013 README

This shows that alternatives worked in June.  Have you changed anything since 
then that might be related to symlinks (e.g., the CYGWIN environment variable)?

Here are a few other things you could try:

1. Attach cygcheck output as requested in https://cygwin.com/problems.html

2. Add --verbose to the alternatives call.

3. Run the alternatives call under strace and look for errors involving 
symlinks.  Or post the output somewhere so that we can look at it.

Ken

Re: Setup shows errors from gnuplot-base.dash and python38-devel.sh

[Doug Henderson]

"On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 at 05:59, Ken Brown via Cygwin <cygwin@cygwin.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/14/2021 9:20 PM, Doug Henderson via Cygwin wrote:
> > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 16:33, Ken Brown via Cygwin <cygwin@cygwin.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 7/14/2021 5:08 PM, Doug Henderson via Cygwin wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:03, Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Doug Henderson via Cygwin writes:
> >>>>> The first error message occurred when I installed all pending packages
> >>>>> this morning. I hoped to heal the problem by reinstalling the
> >>>>> installed gnuplot packages. Now I get both the messages.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you look in /var7Log/setup.log.full you should be able to see what
> >>>> error messages, if any, were recorded.
> >>>>
> >>>> The gnuplot related script should just set up the current alternative
> >>>> for "gnuplot" to use, but something on your system seems to prevent
> >>>> that from happening.  You can also run the script in sh (you must tell
> >>>> the shell to source it) and should get the same error (most likely).
> >>>
> >>> When I do that in an elevated shell:
> >>>
> >>> $ cd /etc/postinstall/
> >>>
> >>> $ cat gnuplot-base.dash
> >>> /usr/sbin/alternatives --install /usr/bin/gnuplot gnuplot
> >>> /usr/bin/gnuplot-base.exe 10
> >>>
> >>> $ . gnuplot-base.dash
> >>> failed to read link /usr/bin/gnuplot: No such file or directory
> >>> failed to link /usr/bin/gnuplot -> /etc/alternatives/gnuplot: No such
> >>> file or directory
> >>
> >> Something seems to be confusing 'alternatives'.  Can you show a listing of
> >> /etc/alternatives?
> >
> > $ cd /etc/alternatives/
> >
> > $ ls -l
> > total 2.0K
> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  35 Oct  3  2017 automake-doc ->
> > /usr/share/info/automake1.9.info.gz
> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  19 Jun 16 17:48 lua -> /usr/bin/lua5.3.exe*
> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  31 Jun 16 17:48 lua.1.gz ->
> > /usr/share/man/man1/lua5.3.1.gz
> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  20 Jun 16 17:48 luac -> /usr/bin/luac5.3.exe*
> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  32 Jun 16 17:48 luac.1.gz ->
> > /usr/share/man/man1/luac5.3.1.gz
> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  15 Jun  5 08:46 pip3 -> /usr/bin/pip3.8*
> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  22 Jun 16 07:34 python -> /usr/bin/python3.8.exe*
> > -rw-r--r-- 1 Admin None 163 Apr  4  2013 README
>
> This shows that alternatives worked in June.  Have you changed anything since
> then that might be related to symlinks (e.g., the CYGWIN environment variable)?
>
> Here are a few other things you could try:
>
> 1. Attach cygcheck output as requested in https://cygwin.com/problems.html
>
> 2. Add --verbose to the alternatives call.
>
> 3. Run the alternatives call under strace and look for errors involving
> symlinks.  Or post the output somewhere so that we can look at it.

Now using setup-x86_64.exe version 2.909 (64 bit)
Postinstall script errors:
Package: _/Unknown package
    gnuplot-base.dash exit code 2
    python38-devel.sh exit code 2

Here's what I did in an elevated shell.

$ cd /etc/alternatives

$ cat /etc/postinstall/gnuplot-base.dash
/usr/sbin/alternatives --install /usr/bin/gnuplot gnuplot
/usr/bin/gnuplot-base.exe 10

$ /usr/sbin/alternatives --verbose --install /usr/bin/gnuplot gnuplot
/usr/bin/gnuplot-base.exe 10
reading /var/lib/alternatives/gnuplot
failed to read link /usr/bin/gnuplot: No such file or directory
failed to link /usr/bin/gnuplot -> /etc/alternatives/gnuplot: No such
file or directory

$ echo $CYGWIN
winsymlinks:nativestrict

*** changed system environment
$ echo $CYGWIN
winsymlinks:native

$ /usr/sbin/alternatives --verbose --install /usr/bin/gnuplot gnuplot
/usr/bin/gnuplot-base.exe 10
reading /var/lib/alternatives/gnuplot


*** Success
Alternatives does not work correctly when CYGWIN=nativestrict. Perhaps
it is trying to create a link before the link target exists. Unlike
Linux, Windows does not allow creating symbolic links to non-existent
targets.

The /etc/postinstall/python38-devel.sh also works now.

Also after changing env back to CYGWIN=winsymlinks:nativestrict the
erroring postinstall scripts continue to work. This supports my
suspicion that /usr/sbin/alternatives is trying to create a symbolic
link to a target before it creates the target when it is performing
the first install for an alternative. On subsequent runs, the target
already exists.

I have unattached the output from cygcheck, as I do not believe it
will help now.

Am I the only person that uses "CYGWIN=winsymlinks:nativestrict" ???
Sorry for all the bother. My aging brain forgot how I made
alternatives work for Lua last month.

HTH
Doug

-- 
Doug Henderson, Calgary, Alberta, Canada - from gmail.com

Re: Setup shows errors from gnuplot-base.dash and python38-devel.sh

[ASSI]

Doug Henderson via Cygwin writes:
> Alternatives does not work correctly when CYGWIN=nativestrict. Perhaps
> it is trying to create a link before the link target exists. Unlike
> Linux, Windows does not allow creating symbolic links to non-existent
> targets.

Which is one reason why Windows symlinks are not POSIX symlinks.  The
real reason is that you need to need to tell Windows whether you're
pointing the symlink at a directory or a file when the target does not
yet exist.

> Am I the only person that uses "CYGWIN=winsymlinks:nativestrict" ???

Well, you should certainly pay more attention to where, when and how it
breaks.  It papers over one of the differences between the POSIX and
Windows world, but creates another gap elsewhere.

This is exactly why I have backed out the commit that uses the CYGWIN
environment variable in setup.exe.


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

SD adaptations for KORG EX-800 and Poly-800MkII V0.9:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#KorgSDada

Re: Setup shows errors from gnuplot-base.dash and python38-devel.sh

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Doug Henderson!

>> >>> When I do that in an elevated shell:
>> >>>
>> >>> $ cd /etc/postinstall/
>> >>>
>> >>> $ cat gnuplot-base.dash
>> >>> /usr/sbin/alternatives --install /usr/bin/gnuplot gnuplot
>> >>> /usr/bin/gnuplot-base.exe 10
>> >>>
>> >>> $ . gnuplot-base.dash
>> >>> failed to read link /usr/bin/gnuplot: No such file or directory
>> >>> failed to link /usr/bin/gnuplot -> /etc/alternatives/gnuplot: No such
>> >>> file or directory
>> >>
>> >> Something seems to be confusing 'alternatives'.  Can you show a listing of
>> >> /etc/alternatives?
>> >
>> > $ cd /etc/alternatives/
>> >
>> > $ ls -l
>> > total 2.0K
>> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  35 Oct  3  2017 automake-doc ->
>> > /usr/share/info/automake1.9.info.gz
>> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  19 Jun 16 17:48 lua -> /usr/bin/lua5.3.exe*
>> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  31 Jun 16 17:48 lua.1.gz ->
>> > /usr/share/man/man1/lua5.3.1.gz
>> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  20 Jun 16 17:48 luac -> /usr/bin/luac5.3.exe*
>> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  32 Jun 16 17:48 luac.1.gz ->
>> > /usr/share/man/man1/luac5.3.1.gz
>> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  15 Jun  5 08:46 pip3 -> /usr/bin/pip3.8*
>> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 Admin None  22 Jun 16 07:34 python -> /usr/bin/python3.8.exe*
>> > -rw-r--r-- 1 Admin None 163 Apr  4  2013 README
>>
>> This shows that alternatives worked in June.  Have you changed anything since
>> then that might be related to symlinks (e.g., the CYGWIN environment variable)?
>>
>> Here are a few other things you could try:
>>
>> 1. Attach cygcheck output as requested in https://cygwin.com/problems.html
>>
>> 2. Add --verbose to the alternatives call.
>>
>> 3. Run the alternatives call under strace and look for errors involving
>> symlinks.  Or post the output somewhere so that we can look at it.

> Now using setup-x86_64.exe version 2.909 (64 bit)
> Postinstall script errors:
> Package: _/Unknown package
>     gnuplot-base.dash exit code 2
>     python38-devel.sh exit code 2

> Here's what I did in an elevated shell.

> $ cd /etc/alternatives

> $ cat /etc/postinstall/gnuplot-base.dash
> /usr/sbin/alternatives --install /usr/bin/gnuplot gnuplot
> /usr/bin/gnuplot-base.exe 10

> $ /usr/sbin/alternatives --verbose --install /usr/bin/gnuplot gnuplot
> /usr/bin/gnuplot-base.exe 10
> reading /var/lib/alternatives/gnuplot
> failed to read link /usr/bin/gnuplot: No such file or directory
> failed to link /usr/bin/gnuplot -> /etc/alternatives/gnuplot: No such
> file or directory

> $ echo $CYGWIN
> winsymlinks:nativestrict

> *** changed system environment
> $ echo $CYGWIN
> winsymlinks:native

> $ /usr/sbin/alternatives --verbose --install /usr/bin/gnuplot gnuplot
> /usr/bin/gnuplot-base.exe 10
> reading /var/lib/alternatives/gnuplot


> *** Success
> Alternatives does not work correctly when CYGWIN=nativestrict. Perhaps
> it is trying to create a link before the link target exists. Unlike
> Linux, Windows does not allow creating symbolic links to non-existent
> targets.

> The /etc/postinstall/python38-devel.sh also works now.

> Also after changing env back to CYGWIN=winsymlinks:nativestrict the
> erroring postinstall scripts continue to work. This supports my
> suspicion that /usr/sbin/alternatives is trying to create a symbolic
> link to a target before it creates the target when it is performing
> the first install for an alternative. On subsequent runs, the target
> already exists.

> I have unattached the output from cygcheck, as I do not believe it
> will help now.

> Am I the only person that uses "CYGWIN=winsymlinks:nativestrict" ???

$ echo "$CYGWIN"
wincmdln winsymlinks:nativestrict glob:ignorecase

> Sorry for all the bother. My aging brain forgot how I made
> alternatives work for Lua last month.

I've stumbled upon the same problem earlier.
alternatives tries to create a link pointing to a nonexistent file. Which is
valid in Linux, but impossible in Windows.
IMO, this is a logical fallacy and should not be attempted, making it an
upstream bug.


-- 
With best regards,
Andrey Repin
Friday, July 16, 2021 6:56:55

Sorry for my terrible english...