[ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[Yaakov Selkowitz]

The following packages have been updated in the Cygwin distribution:

* tcl-8.5.18-1
* tcl-devel-8.5.18-1
* tcl-tk-8.5.18-1
* tcl-tk-devel-8.5.18-1

Tcl (Tool Command Language) is a very powerful but easy to learn dynamic
programming language, suitable for a very wide range of uses, including
web and desktop applications, networking, administration, testing and
many more.  Tk is the standard graphical user interface toolkit not only
for Tcl, but for many other dynamic languages, and can produce rich,
native applications that run unchanged across different platforms.

This is an update to the latest upstream 8.5 stable branch release, with
the following packaging changes:

* Due to the addition of pkg-config files which pull in a number of
-devel packages, separate tcl-devel and tcl-tk-devel packages have been
created.

* Just after the last Cygwin tcl/tk release, upstream decided to
"improve" Cygwin support by further hybridizing it, going in the exact
opposite direction we went with the switch to a fully *NIX/X11 8.5.  I
have done my best to undo all these changes (which were extensive), but
please let me know if something was missed.

--
Yaakov

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[Steven Penny]

On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Yaakov Selkowitz wrote:
> * Just after the last Cygwin tcl/tk release, upstream decided to
> "improve" Cygwin support by further hybridizing it, going in the exact
> opposite direction we went with the switch to a fully *NIX/X11 8.5.  I
> have done my best to undo all these changes (which were extensive), but
> please let me know if something was missed.

Am I reading this right in that "tcl" and "tcl-tk" packages no longer require
X11? I would love it if we went back to using GDI, however I am seeing
unexpected results on a fresh setup.ini:

    @ tcl-tk
    sdesc: "Tcl X11 toolkit"
    ldesc: "An X11 toolkit implemented with the Tcl scripting language."
    category: Interpreters Tcl X11
    requires: bash cygwin libfontconfig1 libX11_6 libXft2 libXss1 tcl
    version: 8.5.18-1

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[Yaakov Selkowitz]

On Wed, 2015-05-20 at 18:09 -0500, Steven Penny wrote:
> On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Yaakov Selkowitz wrote:
> > * Just after the last Cygwin tcl/tk release, upstream decided to
> > "improve" Cygwin support by further hybridizing it, going in the exact
> > opposite direction we went with the switch to a fully *NIX/X11 8.5.  I
> > have done my best to undo all these changes (which were extensive), but
> > please let me know if something was missed.
> 
> Am I reading this right in that "tcl" and "tcl-tk" packages no longer require
> X11?

No, *upstream* tried to hybridize Tcl/Tk by supporting *both* Win32/GDI
and *NIX/X11 APIs through some very ugly hacks.  I undid those to make
it pure *NIX/X11 again, as it should on Cygwin.

--
Yaakov



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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[Steven Penny]

On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 7:30 PM, Yaakov Selkowitz wrote:
> I undid those to make it pure *NIX/X11 again, as it should on Cygwin.

I started using Tcl/Tk in 2011.

February 2012 the change hit
https://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2012-02/msg00115.html

By June 2012 I had found a workaround for using GDI instead of X11
http://github.com/svnpenn/a/blob/a01fe1e/build/win32/tcl-tk/tcl-tk-cygwin.sh
http://stackoverflow.com/revisions/13171210/6

and have been using different versions of that script since. Installing Tcl/Tk
with X11 is non-trivial:

    tcl           2,181,674
    tcl-tk        5,691,785
    libX11_6        745,228
    libXau6          18,626
    libXdmcp6       124,932
    libXext6        220,188
    libXft2          42,224
    libXrender1      29,180
    libXss1          13,892
    libexpat1        58,104
    libfontconfig1  113,264
    libfreetype6    369,440
    libpng16        156,684
    libxcb1          35,116
    total compressed size: 9,800,337

Compare to Tcl/Tk with GDI:

    mingw-w64-x86_64-tcl-8.6.4-1-any.pkg.tar.xz   2,943,876
    mingw-w64-x86_64-tk-8.6.4-1-any.pkg.tar.xz    1,915,372
    mingw-w64-x86_64-zlib-1.2.8-7-any.pkg.tar.xz    151,396
    total compressed size: 5,010,644

http://www2.futureware.at/~nickoe/msys2-mirror/mingw64

I feel that forcing users to install X11 just to run a 338 KB gitk script is a
bad idea.

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[Yaakov Selkowitz]

On Wed, 2015-05-20 at 22:22 -0500, Steven Penny wrote:
> On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 7:30 PM, Yaakov Selkowitz wrote:
> > I undid those to make it pure *NIX/X11 again, as it should on Cygwin.
> 
> I started using Tcl/Tk in 2011.
> 
> February 2012 the change hit
> https://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2012-02/msg00115.html
> 
> By June 2012 I had found a workaround for using GDI instead of X11

In other words, use MinGW-w64 instead of Cygwin.  That's your choice,
but this list is about *using* Cygwin, not how *not* to use it, so this
is off-topic.

--
Yaakov



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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[Jan Nijtmans]

2015-05-21 5:22 GMT+02:00 Steven Penny <svnpenn@gmail.com>:

> I feel that forcing users to install X11 just to run a 338 KB gitk script is a
> bad idea.

That's what I thought too, therefore I implemented a dual
mode: If Tcl/Tk is compiled from sources in the unix
directory, both X11 and GDI support are compiled in.
If the $DISPLAY variable is set, X11 mode is
assumed, otherwise GDI mode. That's what
available upstream now.

It's true that some hacks were required to accomplish
this, but the good new is that it simply works, If you
want the details, I presented them
in the EuroTcl 2013 conference. Pity that
Yaakov doesn't appreciate that, but anyone
who does can just compile Tcl/Tk from
sources in UNIX mode (which is different
from mingw-w64 mode, since cygwin1.dll
is still used as runtime).

2015-05-21 8:16 GMT+02:00 Yaakov Selkowitz <yselkowitz@cygwin.com>:
> On Wed, 2015-05-20 at 22:22 -0500, Steven Penny wrote:
>> By June 2012 I had found a workaround for using GDI instead of X11
>
> In other words, use MinGW-w64 instead of Cygwin.  That's your choice,
> but this list is about *using* Cygwin, not how *not* to use it, so this
> is off-topic.

My suggestion would be to compile Tcl/Tk from sources. On
cygwin64, configure with --enable-64bit, otherwise the links
with the GDI part won't work !!!!!

Feedback is appreciated, at least on comp.lang.tcl

Regards,
          Jan Nijtmans

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[Achim Gratz]

Jan Nijtmans <jan.nijtmans <at> gmail.com> writes:
> It's true that some hacks were required to accomplish
> this, but the good new is that it simply works, If you
> want the details, I presented them
> in the EuroTcl 2013 conference.

It seems that you presented a year earlier and the slide set isn't all that
enlightening to me, sorry.

Regards,
Achim.


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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[Jan Nijtmans]

2015-05-21 9:04 GMT+02:00 Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de>:
> It seems that you presented a year earlier and the slide set isn't all that
> enlightening to me, sorry.
>
> Regards,
> Achim.

Indeed, the slide set is almost useless without the
accompaning story, but that part was not recorded ;-(
Most of the story (how to build Tcl) is outdated
now. All details can be found now in the Tcl sources,
but I guess it's too technical for most eyes.

Regards,
       Jan Nijtmans

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[Michael Enright]

On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 8:22 PM, Steven Penny <svnpenn@gmail.com> wrote:
> and have been using different versions of that script since. Installing Tcl/Tk
> with X11 is non-trivial:
>
>     tcl           2,181,674
>     tcl-tk        5,691,785
>     libX11_6        745,228
>     libXau6          18,626
>     libXdmcp6       124,932
>     libXext6        220,188
>     libXft2          42,224
>     libXrender1      29,180
>     libXss1          13,892
>     libexpat1        58,104
>     libfontconfig1  113,264
>     libfreetype6    369,440
>     libpng16        156,684
>     libxcb1          35,116
>     total compressed size: 9,800,337
>
Based on what I see getting updated, and some of the behaviors of the
resulting install on my three installations, that may be a low
estimate of the impact of X Windows. I'm not sure if the server is
using freetype, fontconfig or expat (it's conceivable) but let's
assume that the server does create those dependencies because a client
is not required to use any of them. The png library would seem to be
no part of X. And then there is the latest visible manifestation of
starting X, the X logo in the corner of the screen.

@Yaakov, many of us have a Cygwin requirement imposed on them for
reasons that maybe even you would argue against. Given that Cygwin
runs in a world where using GDI is economical and using X is costly,
and given that downloading and installing updates is a burden that
seems to grow ever larger as packages sprout dependencies on each
other, I would like to see the emergence of a new consensus that
clarifies to what extent X Windows is important to Cygwin as a whole.
It clearly is important to some programs but is it so essential to the
Cygwin ecosystem that the burden of using X is to be imposed on so
many unwilling Cygwin users?

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[Marco Atzeri]

On 5/21/2015 8:20 PM, Michael Enright wrote:

> @Yaakov, many of us have a Cygwin requirement imposed on them for
> reasons that maybe even you would argue against. Given that Cygwin
> runs in a world where using GDI is economical and using X is costly,
> and given that downloading and installing updates is a burden that
> seems to grow ever larger as packages sprout dependencies on each
> other, I would like to see the emergence of a new consensus that
> clarifies to what extent X Windows is important to Cygwin as a whole.
> It clearly is important to some programs but is it so essential to the
> Cygwin ecosystem that the burden of using X is to be imposed on so
> many unwilling Cygwin users?
>

Dear Michael,
please note that in the past we had GDI packages
and all of them died as the maintenance burden was not matched
by volunteers.
The last one, perl-Win32-GUI, is in the same state.

On TCL/TK, if I remember right we arrived at a point where
it was not possible to compile other packages depending on it;
its GDI leg was interfering with the unix root of the rest of cygwin,
it was a mess. Going X we cut the knot.

If you look at the list of maintainers
https://cygwin.com/cygwin-pkg-maint

you will notice that it is very very short.

Basically:
Corinna is handling the cygwin core
Yaakov is handlig > 50% of the packages
Jon is handling all the X server
Achim is handling all perl
Ken is handling all texlive
Add me, Jary and Volker and we cover ~ 90% of all packages

Please consider the additional burden you are asking to the
limited maintainers' resources.

Regards
Marco



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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[Michael Enright]

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Marco Atzeri <marco.atzeri@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you look at the list of maintainers
> https://cygwin.com/cygwin-pkg-maint
>
> you will notice that it is very very short.
>
> Basically:
> Corinna is handling the cygwin core
> Yaakov is handlig > 50% of the packages
> Jon is handling all the X server
> Achim is handling all perl
> Ken is handling all texlive
> Add me, Jary and Volker and we cover ~ 90% of all packages
>
> Please consider the additional burden you are asking to the
> limited maintainers' resources.
>
> Regards
> Marco
>

Thank-you for bringing this side of it to my attention. I think we all
participate or have participated at some point in projects where
tradeoffs of user effect vs developer time are made. I think it is
fair to escalate the question of where this balance is set from time
to time. I have used Cygwin for several years and only recently did I
have such a serious problem with it that I had to email this list for
support instead of working around the problem. I once had to counsel
customers to stick with Cygwin 1.5 because we didn't get approval to
fix our call to "nc" to match the version packaged in Cygwin 1.7,
given the balance of factors on our end. This is one understaffed
project forcing the hand of another understaffed project. We upgraded
our "nc" usage about two years after the problem was diagnosed,
because more and more users had downloaded a current version of Cygwin
and hit the 'nc' incompatibility.

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[Steven Penny]

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Michael Enright wrote:
> I'm not sure if the server is using freetype

    tcl-tk > libXft2 > libfreetype6

> fontconfig

    tcl-tk > libfontconfig1

> expat

    tcl-tk > libfontconfig1 > libexpat1

> The png library would seem to be no part of X

    tcl-tk > libXft2 > libfreetype6 > libpng16

In the future, you might do your homework rather than waste my time.

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[Michael Enright]

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Steven Penny <svnpenn@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Michael Enright wrote:
>> I'm not sure if the server is using freetype
>
> <snip>
>     tcl-tk > libXft2 > libfreetype6 > libpng16
>
> In the future, you might do your homework rather than waste my time.
>

My questions were about the X server, because I figured the server
could use some of those packages at least for doing its job. X clients
can theoretically have the server do their text for them, though it
seems to be less and less the case that clients are designed that way.
I certainly need more to know how to navigate whatever data is
available to me than to have others do it for me. I once was looking
for info on Cygwin packages and eventually found what I needed and
then found that the setup GUI had the answer. I am curious about how I
came to have a dependency on TeXlive in my installation even though I
don't need TeX. Where could I look for the info?

I come in peace.

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[Steven Penny]

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 8:32 PM, Michael Enright wrote:
> I am curious about how I came to have a dependency on TeXlive in my
#> installation even though I don't need TeX. Where could I look for the info?

Hm, not sure. This could get you started

    apt-cyg rdepends texlive |
    awk '
    $NF !~ /texlive/ {
      z[$NF]
    }
    END {
      for (y in z)
        print y
    }
    '

Result

    asciidoc
    xhtml2ps
    maxima
    mate-common
    maxima-lang-pt_BR-utf8
    maxima-lang-de-utf8
    html2ps
    gnome-common
    dblatex
    asymptote
    biber
    texinfo-tex
    gnuplot
    emacs-auctex
    docbook-utils
    maxima-lang-pt-utf8
    xmlto
    xfce4-dev-tools
    gtk-doc
    a2ps
    maxima-lang-es-utf8

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Updated: Tcl/Tk 8.5.18

[Michael Enright]

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:06 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
>
>     apt-cyg rdepends texlive |
> <snip>
>     '
>
> Result
>
><snip>

Interesting.

For the lurkers, apt-cyg is not (yet?) available via
setup-x86{,_64}.exe and this SO question has info about obtaining it.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9751845/apt-get-for-cygwin

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