setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[Jérôme Bouat]

Hello,

I used the "--delete-orphans" option in order to remove the orphaned packages. However, is there a way to list them into the graphical chooser of the setup program (as the current filters : "pending", "installed", "not installed", ...) ? Then I could easily choose packages for removal.

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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[Ken Brown]

On 10/1/2017 9:50 AM, Jérôme Bouat wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I used the "--delete-orphans" option in order to remove the orphaned 
> packages. However, is there a way to list them into the graphical 
> chooser of the setup program (as the current filters : "pending", 
> "installed", "not installed", ...) ? Then I could easily choose packages 
> for removal.

Choose the Category view.  One of the listed categories is "Orphaned".

Ken


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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[Brian Inglis]

On 2017-10-01 08:33, Ken Brown wrote:
> On 10/1/2017 9:50 AM, Jérôme Bouat wrote:
>> I used the "--delete-orphans" option in order to remove the orphaned packages.
>> However, is there a way to list them into the graphical chooser of the setup
>> program (as the current filters : "pending", "installed", "not installed",
>> ...) ? Then I could easily choose packages for removal.
> 
> Choose the Category view.  One of the listed categories is "Orphaned".

ISTR that setup-x86{,_64} -o --delete-orphans Pending view shows the packages
which could be removed?

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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[Ken Brown]

[Please keep the discussion on the mailing list, and please don't top post.]

On 10/3/2017 3:00 PM, Jérôme Bouat wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I didn't find the "orphaned" category but the "obsolete" category when 
> unselecting "hide obsolete" checkbox. Does the "Orphaned" category 
> appears only when orphaned packages exist ?

Probably.

> Maybe it would be more intuitive to find "orphaned" into the "filters" : 
> a category still be the same category whatever the package is installed, 
> not installed, pending, obsolete or orphaned.

If a package is orphaned, then setup has no information about what 
category it was in when it was installed.

Ken

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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[Achim Gratz]

Ken Brown writes:
> If a package is orphaned, then setup has no information about what
> category it was in when it was installed.

Which is why it'll show up in the "Misc" category, which otherwise
should be empty.


Regards,
Achim.
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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[Jon Turney]

On 05/10/2017 19:05, Achim Gratz wrote:
> Ken Brown writes:
>> If a package is orphaned, then setup has no information about what
>> category it was in when it was installed.
> 
> Which is why it'll show up in the "Misc" category, which otherwise
> should be empty.

... which was renamed "Orphaned" in setup 2.880 [1][2]

[1] https://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-announce/2017-06/msg00019.html
[2] 
https://sourceware.org/git/gitweb.cgi?p=cygwin-apps/setup.git;a=commit;h=fb5ecc5d154a70a05c0388c3cc3ee3016a92763f

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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[Jérôme Bouat]

Hello

> If a package is orphaned, then setup has no information about what category it was in when it was installed.

Then maybe would it be more intuitive to select "orphaned" into the view/filter selector (top of the graphical chooser) instead of creating a virtual category which isn't actually a category ?

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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[Ken Brown]

[Resending to list.]

On 10/5/2017 3:01 PM, Jérôme Bouat wrote:
> Hello
> 
>> If a package is orphaned, then setup has no information about what 
>> category it was in when it was installed.
> 
> Then maybe would it be more intuitive to select "orphaned" into the 
> view/filter selector (top of the graphical chooser)

Orphaned packages are not important enough for that.

> instead of creating 
> a virtual category which isn't actually a category ?

The category view is supposed to list all packages, arranged by 
category.  There has to be some place in that view to list the packages 
with unknown category.

Ken


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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[Jérôme Bouat]

Hello.

I launched setup with the --delete-orphans option. Next the graphical chooser still show a package into the "obsolete" category after I unselected the "hide obsolete" check-box. This package was not marked for removal.

Therefore it seems that "--delete-orphans" option doesn't handle the same packages than the "obsolete" category.

Are "orphans" and "obsolete" 2 different things ?

Le 07/10/2017 à 09:50, Ken Brown a écrit :
>>> If a package is orphaned, then setup has no information about what category it was in when it was installed.
>>
>> Then maybe would it be more intuitive to select "orphaned" into the view/filter selector (top of the graphical chooser)
> 
> Orphaned packages are not important enough for that.
> 
>> instead of creating a virtual category which isn't actually a category ?
> 
> The category view is supposed to list all packages, arranged by category.  There has to be some place in that view to list the packages with unknown category.

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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[Achim Gratz]

Jérôme Bouat writes:
> Are "orphans" and "obsolete" 2 different things ?

Yes.  An orphaned package is one that is installed on your system, but
not available in any version from setup.  An obsolete package is one
that still exists (usually as an empty package) both in setup and on
your system in order to provide a dependency (usually for older packages
that still refer to the obsolete package name until they can get
rebuilt).


Regards,
Achim.
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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[Brian Inglis]

On 2017-10-13 13:37, Achim Gratz wrote:
> Jérôme Bouat writes:
>> Are "orphans" and "obsolete" 2 different things ?
> 
> Yes.  An orphaned package is one that is installed on your system, but
> not available in any version from setup.  An obsolete package is one
> that still exists (usually as an empty package) both in setup and on
> your system in order to provide a dependency (usually for older packages
> that still refer to the obsolete package name until they can get
> rebuilt).

Obsolete packages are also provided in setup like "virtual" packages for
backward compatibility with old package names requiring the new package.

I recently removed some of these old obsolete packages as I was using the
upgraded packages.

The next time I ran setup for an upgrade to the underlying package, the obsolete
package and obsolete library package were "reinstalled", along with the upgraded
real package and library package!?

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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[Ken Brown]

On 10/13/2017 3:49 PM, Brian Inglis wrote:
> On 2017-10-13 13:37, Achim Gratz wrote:
>> Jérôme Bouat writes:
>>> Are "orphans" and "obsolete" 2 different things ?
>>
>> Yes.  An orphaned package is one that is installed on your system, but
>> not available in any version from setup.  An obsolete package is one
>> that still exists (usually as an empty package) both in setup and on
>> your system in order to provide a dependency (usually for older packages
>> that still refer to the obsolete package name until they can get
>> rebuilt).
> 
> Obsolete packages are also provided in setup like "virtual" packages for
> backward compatibility with old package names requiring the new package.
> 
> I recently removed some of these old obsolete packages as I was using the
> upgraded packages.
> 
> The next time I ran setup for an upgrade to the underlying package, the obsolete
> package and obsolete library package were "reinstalled", along with the upgraded
> real package and library package!?

This is very common.  Suppose you have package A installed, which 
requires B.  Package B gets obsoleted by C.  But A still requires B 
until someone (usually the maintainer of A) changes this to make A 
require C instead.

Ken

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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[cyg Simple]

On 10/13/2017 4:16 PM, Ken Brown wrote:
> On 10/13/2017 3:49 PM, Brian Inglis wrote:
>> On 2017-10-13 13:37, Achim Gratz wrote:
>>> Jérôme Bouat writes:
>>>> Are "orphans" and "obsolete" 2 different things ?
>>>
>>> Yes.  An orphaned package is one that is installed on your system, but
>>> not available in any version from setup.  An obsolete package is one
>>> that still exists (usually as an empty package) both in setup and on
>>> your system in order to provide a dependency (usually for older packages
>>> that still refer to the obsolete package name until they can get
>>> rebuilt).
>>
>> Obsolete packages are also provided in setup like "virtual" packages for
>> backward compatibility with old package names requiring the new package.
>>
>> I recently removed some of these old obsolete packages as I was using the
>> upgraded packages.
>>
>> The next time I ran setup for an upgrade to the underlying package,
>> the obsolete
>> package and obsolete library package were "reinstalled", along with
>> the upgraded
>> real package and library package!?
> 
> This is very common.  Suppose you have package A installed, which
> requires B.  Package B gets obsoleted by C.  But A still requires B
> until someone (usually the maintainer of A) changes this to make A
> require C instead.
> 

Maybe a column showing what installed packages are depending on B and a
column showing the dependencies for package A would be nice?  It would
help clear the confusion anyway.

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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[Marco Atzeri]

On 14/10/2017 17:31, cyg Simple wrote:

>>
>> This is very common.  Suppose you have package A installed, which
>> requires B.  Package B gets obsoleted by C.  But A still requires B
>> until someone (usually the maintainer of A) changes this to make A
>> require C instead.
>>
> 
> Maybe a column showing what installed packages are depending on B and a
> column showing the dependencies for package A would be nice?  It would
> help clear the confusion anyway.


the cygcheck-dep package can provide dependencies information,
I do not see the need for setup to do it

regards
Marco


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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[cyg Simple]

On 10/14/2017 12:11 PM, Marco Atzeri wrote:
> On 14/10/2017 17:31, cyg Simple wrote:
> 
>>>
>>> This is very common.  Suppose you have package A installed, which
>>> requires B.  Package B gets obsoleted by C.  But A still requires B
>>> until someone (usually the maintainer of A) changes this to make A
>>> require C instead.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe a column showing what installed packages are depending on B and a
>> column showing the dependencies for package A would be nice?  It would
>> help clear the confusion anyway.
> 
> 
> the cygcheck-dep package can provide dependencies information,
> I do not see the need for setup to do it
> 

So the information is available just in a different place than where it
should be, the tool I'm using to do the download.  Having a separate
package to tell me the package dependencies isn't very friendly; I might
not have anything installed, certainly not cygcheck-dep and then I have
to learn and remember to use it as a side step of installation.

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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[Ken Brown]

On 10/15/2017 12:24 AM, cyg Simple wrote:
> On 10/14/2017 12:11 PM, Marco Atzeri wrote:
>> On 14/10/2017 17:31, cyg Simple wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> This is very common.  Suppose you have package A installed, which
>>>> requires B.  Package B gets obsoleted by C.  But A still requires B
>>>> until someone (usually the maintainer of A) changes this to make A
>>>> require C instead.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe a column showing what installed packages are depending on B and a
>>> column showing the dependencies for package A would be nice?  It would
>>> help clear the confusion anyway.
>>
>>
>> the cygcheck-dep package can provide dependencies information,
>> I do not see the need for setup to do it
>>
> 
> So the information is available just in a different place than where it
> should be, the tool I'm using to do the download.  Having a separate
> package to tell me the package dependencies isn't very friendly; I might
> not have anything installed, certainly not cygcheck-dep and then I have
> to learn and remember to use it as a side step of installation.

I think most users would be distracted by seeing the dependencies 
displayed and would have no need for this information.  On the rare 
occasions when they are surprised that something got installed, they can 
use cygcheck-dep (or ask on the list) to find the reason.

Ken

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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[Jérôme Bouat]

Hello.

If you look at the synaptic graphical package manager, it is able to filter deb packages by : obsolete (or local) packages, packages which can be removed.

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Re: setup graphical chooser : how to list orphaned packages ?

[cyg Simple]

On 10/15/2017 12:10 PM, Ken Brown wrote:
> On 10/15/2017 12:24 AM, cyg Simple wrote:
>> On 10/14/2017 12:11 PM, Marco Atzeri wrote:
>>> On 14/10/2017 17:31, cyg Simple wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is very common.  Suppose you have package A installed, which
>>>>> requires B.  Package B gets obsoleted by C.  But A still requires B
>>>>> until someone (usually the maintainer of A) changes this to make A
>>>>> require C instead.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe a column showing what installed packages are depending on B and a
>>>> column showing the dependencies for package A would be nice?  It would
>>>> help clear the confusion anyway.
>>>
>>>
>>> the cygcheck-dep package can provide dependencies information,
>>> I do not see the need for setup to do it
>>>
>>
>> So the information is available just in a different place than where it
>> should be, the tool I'm using to do the download.  Having a separate
>> package to tell me the package dependencies isn't very friendly; I might
>> not have anything installed, certainly not cygcheck-dep and then I have
>> to learn and remember to use it as a side step of installation.
> 
> I think most users would be distracted by seeing the dependencies
> displayed and would have no need for this information.  On the rare
> occasions when they are surprised that something got installed, they can
> use cygcheck-dep (or ask on the list) to find the reason.
> 

So it becomes one of the optional visible fields.  I don't think the
information would be rarely used though, it might help me not have to
search for a package that is going to be installed anyway because I
chose a primary package.  The information has to be useful or
cygcheck-dep wouldn't exist.

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