* Re: blank line in lists [not found] <Pine.LNX.4.40.0110261601400.28945-100000@starling.mylan.home> @ 2001-10-31 3:38 ` Norman Walsh 2001-10-31 7:19 ` Alan W. Irwin 2001-10-31 14:44 ` Tammy Fox 0 siblings, 2 replies; 5+ messages in thread From: Norman Walsh @ 2001-10-31 3:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Alan W. Irwin; +Cc: docbook-tools-discuss / "Alan W. Irwin" <irwin@beluga.phys.uvic.ca> was heard to say: | Is he saying in a mixed content environment (I presume lists are examples of | that) that no filling or justification of paragraphs is done? That is what | would happen if white space were preserved. Of course, "preserved" is a | stronger statement than "significant" so I guess what I really need is | a definition of significant. | | Would Norm or some other expert here be willing to expand on the remark? "Significant" in this case means "passed through to the application". So, if you say: <para> Some text</para> What the application sees is "Begin a paragraph" "Newline" "Some text" "End a paragraph". So if the application thinks newlines are significant in paragraphs, you get an extra newline. What's really odd though is that I can't reproduce this problem without the intervening indexterm. And I expect the intervening indexterm is just a backend bug. (What are you generating? TeX, RTF, HTML, ... ?) Be seeing you, norm -- Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> | "Abstraction, abstraction and http://nwalsh.com/ | abstraction." This is the answer to the | question, "What are the three most | important words in programming?"--Paul | Hudak ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: blank line in lists 2001-10-31 3:38 ` blank line in lists Norman Walsh @ 2001-10-31 7:19 ` Alan W. Irwin 2001-10-31 7:28 ` Norman Walsh 2001-10-31 14:44 ` Tammy Fox 1 sibling, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread From: Alan W. Irwin @ 2001-10-31 7:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Norman Walsh; +Cc: docbook-tools-discuss Thanks, Norman, for that clear definition. The original poster had a good example of the problem. But I responded because I have often run into that problem myself. I worked around it by being very careful of leading nl's in my DocBook-XML source paragraphs in a mixed content environment, but I always thought of it as a bug that needed to be fixed. It's been 6 months since I have looked at this so the rest of my post is based on my memory of what went on then. So I may have some of the details wrong. But I proved to my satisfaction at that time that jade propagated the nl at the start of paragraphs in mixed environments. I don't think it does this for paragraphs in more ordinary environments, but I am not sure. Let's concentrate on the jade html backend although I suspect the problem occurs for all jade backends. To verify the problem I suggest you try jade with html output, and you should see that propagated nl *looking directly at the raw html file result* at the start of paragraphs in mixed environments like lists. In other words the generated html varys depending on whether that leading nl is in the docbook source or not. Then things get murky, because the browser interpretation of that leading nl in the HTML varies between browsers. As I recall mozilla ignored it while netscape 4.7 and konqueror paid attention to it leading to the problem that the original poster was discussing. Concentrating on the html here, if the html standards say leading nl's in paragraphs are valid in the context of lists or other mixed environments then it is up to the individual browser to ignore them, and obviously the problem is not jade's fault. However, if the html standards say leading nl's for paragraphs within lists are invalid, then this is jade's problem which should be fixed. In case of doubt about the html standards, I understand there are validators which should make it easy to tell whether the jade html output is valid for the leading nl situation we have been discussing. Hope this helps to clarify the problem. Alan email: irwin@beluga.phys.uvic.ca phone: 250-727-2902 FAX: 250-721-7715 snail-mail: Dr. Alan W. Irwin Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of Victoria, P.O. Box 3055, Victoria, British Columbia, Canada, V8W 3P6 __________________________ Linux-powered astrophysics __________________________ On 31 Oct 2001, Norman Walsh wrote: > / "Alan W. Irwin" <irwin@beluga.phys.uvic.ca> was heard to say: > | Is he saying in a mixed content environment (I presume lists are examples of > | that) that no filling or justification of paragraphs is done? That is what > | would happen if white space were preserved. Of course, "preserved" is a > | stronger statement than "significant" so I guess what I really need is > | a definition of significant. > | > | Would Norm or some other expert here be willing to expand on the remark? > > "Significant" in this case means "passed through to the application". So, > if you say: > > <para> > Some text</para> > > What the application sees is "Begin a paragraph" "Newline" "Some text" > "End a paragraph". > > So if the application thinks newlines are significant in paragraphs, > you get an extra newline. > > What's really odd though is that I can't reproduce this problem > without the intervening indexterm. And I expect the intervening > indexterm is just a backend bug. > > (What are you generating? TeX, RTF, HTML, ... ?) > > Be seeing you, > norm > > -- > Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> | "Abstraction, abstraction and > http://nwalsh.com/ | abstraction." This is the answer to the > | question, "What are the three most > | important words in programming?"--Paul > | Hudak > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: blank line in lists 2001-10-31 7:19 ` Alan W. Irwin @ 2001-10-31 7:28 ` Norman Walsh 0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread From: Norman Walsh @ 2001-10-31 7:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Alan W. Irwin; +Cc: docbook-tools-discuss / "Alan W. Irwin" <irwin@beluga.phys.uvic.ca> was heard to say: | Let's concentrate on the jade html backend although I suspect the problem | occurs for all jade backends. To verify the problem I suggest you try jade | with html output, and you should see that propagated nl *looking directly at | the raw html file result* at the start of paragraphs in mixed environments | like lists. Yes, I know what the markup looks like, but... | because the browser interpretation of that leading nl in the HTML varies | between browsers. As I recall mozilla ignored it while netscape 4.7 and | konqueror paid attention to it leading to the problem that the original | poster was discussing. Netscape 6.2 seems to ignore the leading whitespace, which I think is the correct behavior for HTML. | Concentrating on the html here, if the html standards say leading nl's in | paragraphs are valid in the context of lists or other mixed environments | then it is up to the individual browser to ignore them, and obviously the | problem is not jade's fault. That, I believe, is the case. | However, if the html standards say leading | nl's for paragraphs within lists are invalid, then this is jade's problem | which should be fixed. In case of doubt about the html standards, I | understand there are validators which should make it easy to tell whether | the jade html output is valid for the leading nl situation we have been | discussing. There's no question of validity or not, a newline can occur anywhere in a <p>. But what the browsers are supposed to do may be an open question. There are a class of problems that arise because things are allowed in DocBook that are not allowed in HTML (lists inside paragraphs for one). They are not easy to fix in Jade. In practice, I generally heave my generated HTML through tidy. It's a hack, but it usually helps. Except where tidy %@%!W@$@#s up, of course :-( Be seeing you, norm -- Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> | In the life of saints, technically so http://nwalsh.com/ | called, the spiritual facilities are | strong, but what gives the impression | of extravagance proves usually on | examination to be a relative deficiency | of intellect.--William James ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: blank line in lists 2001-10-31 3:38 ` blank line in lists Norman Walsh 2001-10-31 7:19 ` Alan W. Irwin @ 2001-10-31 14:44 ` Tammy Fox 1 sibling, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread From: Tammy Fox @ 2001-10-31 14:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: docbook-tools-discuss; +Cc: Norman Walsh On Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 06:38:00AM -0500, Norman Walsh wrote: > / "Alan W. Irwin" <irwin@beluga.phys.uvic.ca> was heard to say: > | Is he saying in a mixed content environment (I presume lists are examples of > | that) that no filling or justification of paragraphs is done? That is what > | would happen if white space were preserved. Of course, "preserved" is a > | stronger statement than "significant" so I guess what I really need is > | a definition of significant. > | > | Would Norm or some other expert here be willing to expand on the remark? > > "Significant" in this case means "passed through to the application". So, > if you say: > > <para> > Some text</para> > > What the application sees is "Begin a paragraph" "Newline" "Some text" > "End a paragraph". > > So if the application thinks newlines are significant in paragraphs, > you get an extra newline. > > What's really odd though is that I can't reproduce this problem > without the intervening indexterm. And I expect the intervening > indexterm is just a backend bug. > > (What are you generating? TeX, RTF, HTML, ... ?) > I am trying to generate PS and PDF when I see this problem. The HTML output looks fine because it ignores whitespace. Tammy ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
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* Re: blank line in lists [not found] ` <1004124386.2147.279.camel@peecee> @ 2001-10-31 2:57 ` Norman Walsh 0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread From: Norman Walsh @ 2001-10-31 2:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Gregory Leblanc; +Cc: docbook-tools-discuss / Gregory Leblanc <gleblanc@linuxweasel.com> was heard to say: | as well, things will be a bit more consistent. Norm never did reply to | Peter's second message, but if you're interested in more info, | docbook-apps is a much better list than this one (people actually | post/read that list more than once every other month). Hmm. Peter's second message included a patch that I haven't had time to evaluate yet. (I knew there had to be a reason I hadn't replied :-) Be seeing you, norm -- Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> | Every new beginning comes from some http://nwalsh.com/ | other beginning's end. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2001-10-31 14:44 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 5+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <Pine.LNX.4.40.0110261601400.28945-100000@starling.mylan.home> 2001-10-31 3:38 ` blank line in lists Norman Walsh 2001-10-31 7:19 ` Alan W. Irwin 2001-10-31 7:28 ` Norman Walsh 2001-10-31 14:44 ` Tammy Fox [not found] <Pine.LNX.4.40.0110261442550.28945-100000@starling.mylan.home> [not found] ` <1004124386.2147.279.camel@peecee> 2001-10-31 2:57 ` Norman Walsh
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