Re: On US corporate influence over Free Software and the GCC Steering Committee

Re: On US corporate influence over Free Software and the GCC Steering Committee

[David Starner]

Giacomo Tesio wrote:
> And while this is IBM, the other US corporations with affiliations in
the Steering Committee are no better:
https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-April/235777.html

> I can understand that some of you consider working for such corporations "a joy".
> But for the rest of us, and to most people outside the US, their influence
over the leadership of GCC is a threat.
> Please, do not create a hostile environment for indipendent contributors.

What do you mean by independent? If you're independently wealthy and
don't need to work, you can avoid this. If you're a cashier or field
laborer or in some other poorly paid job, then your employer probably
doesn't care. Otherwise, if you work for a company that produces
software, even just internally, or for a university, or a company
where your name might be associated with the company, then your
employer may demand that you cease publicly working on Free Software.

I find it a bit hypocritical; there's no objection to the fact that
GCC was developed using stuff bought with funds donated by these
companies, their creators and their employees, to MIT, including
people like Jeffery Epstein, one of the Koch brothers, and Bill Gates.
But how dare IBM hire people to work on GCC! We need to preserve our
independence!

--
The standard is written in English . If you have trouble understanding
a particular section, read it again and again and again . . . Sit up
straight. Eat your vegetables. Do not mumble. -- _Pascal_, ISO 7185
(1991)

Re: On US corporate influence over Free Software and the GCC Steering Committee

[Paul Koning]

> On Apr 20, 2021, at 9:22 AM, David Starner via Gcc <gcc@gcc.gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> Giacomo Tesio wrote:
>> ...
>> Please, do not create a hostile environment for indipendent contributors.
> 
> What do you mean by independent? If you're independently wealthy and
> don't need to work, you can avoid this. If you're a cashier or field
> laborer or in some other poorly paid job, then your employer probably
> doesn't care. Otherwise, if you work for a company that produces
> software, even just internally, or for a university, or a company
> where your name might be associated with the company, then your
> employer may demand that you cease publicly working on Free Software.

Not necessarily.

I'll offer you my own example.  I'm the target maintainer for pdp11.  It should be obvious that I'm doing this as an "independent contributor", not as part of my job, and indeed that work is for that reason spare time work done outside of business hours.

I have a company copyright disclaimer in place, dating back to some years ago when the work I was doing on gcc did at times touch on (then) company business.  As a legal matter it is doubtful that my current GCC involvement even needs that copyright disclaimer since the work is not on company time and not in the company's field of enterprise.

In other words, we have jobs (unless we're retired or unemployed) as well as private time, and there are a number of GCC contributors who contribute their private time.  I take Giacomo's comment to refer to that case.

	paul

Re: On US corporate influence over Free Software and the GCC Steering Committee

[Bill Schmidt]

On 4/20/21 7:42 AM, Richard Kenner via Gcc wrote:
>> Troubling indeed, but this might just be an overzealous manager.
>> IBM, like other corporations, has made significant technical
>> contributions to GCC over the years, for example the scheduler and
>> the vectorizer, and thus has assigned the copyright of these
>> contributions to the FSF.
> Yes, as long as the employee is doing it as part of their work for IBM,
> which was the case in your examples.  What's never been OK for IBM are
> their employees doing software development "on their own time" because
> they've taken the position that such doesn't exist.

It amazes me how many people who don't work for IBM want to assert IBM's 
policies.

There is certainly ability to work on projects on your own time that 
don't conflict with IBM's business.  You simply have to be open about it 
and make sure your management is aware.

Bill

Re: On US corporate influence over Free Software and the GCC Steering Committee

[Giacomo Tesio]

Hi David, 

I'm amused to see how far you can go to rationalize such a clear statement: 
"You are an IBM employee 100% of the time."


This is the kind of control these companies think they deserve over their employees.

And when they refuse to obey, they are fired, like Timnit Gebru.


To me, the members of the Steering Committee shouldn't be under such burden.
Since the vast maiority of them are, this turns to be a risk for people relying on GCC.


But let me clear about this: I do NOT speak for anybody who share your trust
in the benevolence if US BigTech, wherever they live.


Feel free to believe what makes you feel better.


Giacomo


On April 20, 2021 9:42:55 AM UTC, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> On 20/04/2021 08:54, Giacomo Tesio wrote:
> > Hi GCC developers,
> > 
> > just to further clarify why I think the current Steering Committee
> is highly problematic,
> > I'd like you to give a look at this commit
> > message over Linux MAINTAINERS
> > 
> >
> https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/netdev/net.git/commit/?id=4acd47644ef1e1c8f8f5bc40b7cf1c5b9bcbbc4e
> > 
> > Here the relevant excerpt (but please go chech the quotation):
> > 
> > "As an IBM employee, you are not allowed to use your gmail account
> to work in any way 
> > on VNIC. You are not allowed to use your personal email account as a
> "hobby". You 
> > are an IBM employee 100% of the time. 
> > Please remove yourself completely from the maintainers file. I grant
> you a 1 time 
> > exception on contributions to VNIC to make this change." 
> > 
> > 
> > This is happened yesterday (literally).
> 
> I know nothing of this case other than the link you sent.  But it
> seems
> to me that the complaint from IBM is that the developer used his
> private
> gmail address here rather than his IBM address.
> 
> It is normal practice in most countries that if you are employed full
> time to do a certain type of job, then you can't do the same kind of
> work outside of the job without prior arrangement with the employer.
> That applies whether it is extra paid work, or unpaid (hobby) work.
> This is partly because it can quickly become a conflict of interests,
> and partly because you are supposed to be refreshed and ready for work
> each day and not tired out from an all-night debugging session on a
> different project.
> 
> Usually employers are quite flexible about these things unless there
> is
> a clear conflict of interests (like working on DB2 during the day, and
> Postgresql in the evening).  Some employers prefer to keep things
> standardised and rigid.
> 
> A company like IBM that is heavily involved in Linux kernel coding
> will
> want to keep their copyrights and attributions clear.  So if they have
> an employee that is working on this code - whether it is part of their
> day job or not - it makes sense to insist that attributions,
> maintainer
> contact information and copyrights all make it clear that the work is
> done by an IBM employee.  It is not only IBM's right to insist on
> this,
> it might also be a legal obligation.
> 
> (It is quite possible that this guy's manager could have expressed
> things a bit better - we are not privy to the rest of the email or any
> other communication involved.)
> 
> 
> This is precisely why copyright assignment for the FSF can involve
> complicated forms and agreements from contributors' employers.
> 
> 
> > 
> > And while this is IBM, the other US corporations with affiliations
> in
> > the Steering Committee are no better:
> https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-April/235777.html
> > 
> 
> I can't see any relevance in that post other than your "big
> corporations
> are completely evil because there are examples of them being bad"
> comments.
> 
> > I can understand that some of you consider working for such
> corporations "a joy".
> > But for the rest of us, and to most people outside the US, their
> influence
> > over the leadership of GCC is a threat.
> 
> Please stop claiming to speak for anyone but yourself.  You certainly
> do
> not speak for /me/.  I don't work for "such corporations", I am
> outside
> the US, but I do not see IBM or others having noticeable influence
> over
> gcc and thus there is no threat.
> 
> David

Re: On US corporate influence over Free Software and the GCC Steering Committee

[Richard Kenner]

> Troubling indeed, but this might just be an overzealous manager.
> IBM, like other corporations, has made significant technical
> contributions to GCC over the years, for example the scheduler and
> the vectorizer, and thus has assigned the copyright of these
> contributions to the FSF.

Yes, as long as the employee is doing it as part of their work for IBM,
which was the case in your examples.  What's never been OK for IBM are
their employees doing software development "on their own time" because
they've taken the position that such doesn't exist.

Re: On US corporate influence over Free Software and the GCC Steering Committee

[Richard Kenner]

> You are an IBM employee 100% of the time.

For those who aren't aware of it, this has been IBM's position for
many decades.  It's not a new position.  But they are unique in the
extremeness of their position on this, so generalizing this would be a
mistake.

Re: On US corporate influence over Free Software and the GCC Steering Committee

[Kalamatee]

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 at 11:21, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

> On 20/04/2021 08:54, Giacomo Tesio wrote:
> > Hi GCC developers,
> >
> > just to further clarify why I think the current Steering Committee is
> highly problematic,
> > I'd like you to give a look at this commit
> > message over Linux MAINTAINERS
> >
> >
> https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/netdev/net.git/commit/?id=4acd47644ef1e1c8f8f5bc40b7cf1c5b9bcbbc4e
> >
> > Here the relevant excerpt (but please go chech the quotation):
> >
> > "As an IBM employee, you are not allowed to use your gmail account to
> work in any way
> > on VNIC. You are not allowed to use your personal email account as a
> "hobby". You
> > are an IBM employee 100% of the time.
> > Please remove yourself completely from the maintainers file. I grant you
> a 1 time
> > exception on contributions to VNIC to make this change."
> >
> >
> > This is happened yesterday (literally).
>
> I know nothing of this case other than the link you sent.  But it seems
> to me that the complaint from IBM is that the developer used his private
> gmail address here rather than his IBM address.
>
> It is normal practice in most countries that if you are employed full
> time to do a certain type of job, then you can't do the same kind of
> work outside of the job without prior arrangement with the employer.
> That applies whether it is extra paid work, or unpaid (hobby) work.
> This is partly because it can quickly become a conflict of interests,
> and partly because you are supposed to be refreshed and ready for work
> each day and not tired out from an all-night debugging session on a
> different project.
>
> Usually employers are quite flexible about these things unless there is
> a clear conflict of interests (like working on DB2 during the day, and
> Postgresql in the evening).  Some employers prefer to keep things
> standardised and rigid.
>
> A company like IBM that is heavily involved in Linux kernel coding will
> want to keep their copyrights and attributions clear.  So if they have
> an employee that is working on this code - whether it is part of their
> day job or not - it makes sense to insist that attributions, maintainer
> contact information and copyrights all make it clear that the work is
> done by an IBM employee.  It is not only IBM's right to insist on this,
> it might also be a legal obligation.
>
> (It is quite possible that this guy's manager could have expressed
> things a bit better - we are not privy to the rest of the email or any
> other communication involved.)
>
>
> This is precisely why copyright assignment for the FSF can involve
> complicated forms and agreements from contributors' employers.
>
>
> >
> > And while this is IBM, the other US corporations with affiliations in
> > the Steering Committee are no better:
> https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-April/235777.html
> >
>
> I can't see any relevance in that post other than your "big corporations
> are completely evil because there are examples of them being bad" comments.
>
> > I can understand that some of you consider working for such corporations
> "a joy".
> > But for the rest of us, and to most people outside the US, their
> influence
> > over the leadership of GCC is a threat.
>
> Please stop claiming to speak for anyone but yourself.  You certainly do
> not speak for /me/.  I don't work for "such corporations", I am outside
> the US, but I do not see IBM or others having noticeable influence over
> gcc and thus there is no threat.
>
> David
>
I have raised my concerns directly with the FSF, and GNU, about the
behaviours and attitudes on here - I would suggest others do the same.

Re: On US corporate influence over Free Software and the GCC Steering Committee

[Christopher Dimech]

You got to understand what an employee 100% of the time means.
It means to be 100% Employer-Owned - It is the Culture of Ownership.

But the tyrannical double standard do-gooders and the continued pretense
that they're trying to help people in this society (e.g. women,
minorities, free software, etc) is a lot more destructive.

Am pleased to know you are allowed to do, say, think, etc. whatever you
want to, without being controlled or limited.  Have had developers here
who have contacted me privately to tell me how amazed they are seeing
me pushing my ideas about what software and project administration is.
People who describe me as toxic, abusive, entitled, a jerk, a troll,
a donkey and a twit... A very long list indeed.  Because the only people
they are willing to accept are people like themselves.

My guess is that in their meetings, they sit around discussing who is
worthy to join this wonderful group that they are.  Sitting around
trying to decide who would get to be allowed into this developer
group.

The whole thing is rotten because the purpose of the group is mostly
centered on deciding who could have this honor.

> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 9:42 PM
> From: "David Brown" <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
> To: "Giacomo Tesio" <giacomo@tesio.it>, gcc@gcc.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: On US corporate influence over Free Software and the GCC Steering Committee
>
> On 20/04/2021 08:54, Giacomo Tesio wrote:
> > Hi GCC developers,
> >
> > just to further clarify why I think the current Steering Committee is highly problematic,
> > I'd like you to give a look at this commit
> > message over Linux MAINTAINERS
> >
> > https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/netdev/net.git/commit/?id=4acd47644ef1e1c8f8f5bc40b7cf1c5b9bcbbc4e
> >
> > Here the relevant excerpt (but please go chech the quotation):
> >
> > "As an IBM employee, you are not allowed to use your gmail account to work in any way
> > on VNIC. You are not allowed to use your personal email account as a "hobby". You
> > are an IBM employee 100% of the time.
> > Please remove yourself completely from the maintainers file. I grant you a 1 time
> > exception on contributions to VNIC to make this change."
> >
> >
> > This is happened yesterday (literally).
>
> I know nothing of this case other than the link you sent.  But it seems
> to me that the complaint from IBM is that the developer used his private
> gmail address here rather than his IBM address.
>
> It is normal practice in most countries that if you are employed full
> time to do a certain type of job, then you can't do the same kind of
> work outside of the job without prior arrangement with the employer.
> That applies whether it is extra paid work, or unpaid (hobby) work.
> This is partly because it can quickly become a conflict of interests,
> and partly because you are supposed to be refreshed and ready for work
> each day and not tired out from an all-night debugging session on a
> different project.
>
> Usually employers are quite flexible about these things unless there is
> a clear conflict of interests (like working on DB2 during the day, and
> Postgresql in the evening).  Some employers prefer to keep things
> standardised and rigid.
>
> A company like IBM that is heavily involved in Linux kernel coding will
> want to keep their copyrights and attributions clear.  So if they have
> an employee that is working on this code - whether it is part of their
> day job or not - it makes sense to insist that attributions, maintainer
> contact information and copyrights all make it clear that the work is
> done by an IBM employee.  It is not only IBM's right to insist on this,
> it might also be a legal obligation.
>
> (It is quite possible that this guy's manager could have expressed
> things a bit better - we are not privy to the rest of the email or any
> other communication involved.)
>
>
> This is precisely why copyright assignment for the FSF can involve
> complicated forms and agreements from contributors' employers.
>
>
> >
> > And while this is IBM, the other US corporations with affiliations in
> > the Steering Committee are no better: https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-April/235777.html
> >
>
> I can't see any relevance in that post other than your "big corporations
> are completely evil because there are examples of them being bad" comments.
>
> > I can understand that some of you consider working for such corporations "a joy".
> > But for the rest of us, and to most people outside the US, their influence
> > over the leadership of GCC is a threat.
>
> Please stop claiming to speak for anyone but yourself.  You certainly do
> not speak for /me/.  I don't work for "such corporations", I am outside
> the US, but I do not see IBM or others having noticeable influence over
> gcc and thus there is no threat.
>
> David
>

Re: On US corporate influence over Free Software and the GCC Steering Committee

[David Brown]

On 20/04/2021 08:54, Giacomo Tesio wrote:
> Hi GCC developers,
> 
> just to further clarify why I think the current Steering Committee is highly problematic,
> I'd like you to give a look at this commit
> message over Linux MAINTAINERS
> 
> https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/netdev/net.git/commit/?id=4acd47644ef1e1c8f8f5bc40b7cf1c5b9bcbbc4e
> 
> Here the relevant excerpt (but please go chech the quotation):
> 
> "As an IBM employee, you are not allowed to use your gmail account to work in any way 
> on VNIC. You are not allowed to use your personal email account as a "hobby". You 
> are an IBM employee 100% of the time. 
> Please remove yourself completely from the maintainers file. I grant you a 1 time 
> exception on contributions to VNIC to make this change." 
> 
> 
> This is happened yesterday (literally).

I know nothing of this case other than the link you sent.  But it seems
to me that the complaint from IBM is that the developer used his private
gmail address here rather than his IBM address.

It is normal practice in most countries that if you are employed full
time to do a certain type of job, then you can't do the same kind of
work outside of the job without prior arrangement with the employer.
That applies whether it is extra paid work, or unpaid (hobby) work.
This is partly because it can quickly become a conflict of interests,
and partly because you are supposed to be refreshed and ready for work
each day and not tired out from an all-night debugging session on a
different project.

Usually employers are quite flexible about these things unless there is
a clear conflict of interests (like working on DB2 during the day, and
Postgresql in the evening).  Some employers prefer to keep things
standardised and rigid.

A company like IBM that is heavily involved in Linux kernel coding will
want to keep their copyrights and attributions clear.  So if they have
an employee that is working on this code - whether it is part of their
day job or not - it makes sense to insist that attributions, maintainer
contact information and copyrights all make it clear that the work is
done by an IBM employee.  It is not only IBM's right to insist on this,
it might also be a legal obligation.

(It is quite possible that this guy's manager could have expressed
things a bit better - we are not privy to the rest of the email or any
other communication involved.)


This is precisely why copyright assignment for the FSF can involve
complicated forms and agreements from contributors' employers.


> 
> And while this is IBM, the other US corporations with affiliations in
> the Steering Committee are no better: https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-April/235777.html
> 

I can't see any relevance in that post other than your "big corporations
are completely evil because there are examples of them being bad" comments.

> I can understand that some of you consider working for such corporations "a joy".
> But for the rest of us, and to most people outside the US, their influence
> over the leadership of GCC is a threat.

Please stop claiming to speak for anyone but yourself.  You certainly do
not speak for /me/.  I don't work for "such corporations", I am outside
the US, but I do not see IBM or others having noticeable influence over
gcc and thus there is no threat.

David

Re: On US corporate influence over Free Software and the GCC Steering Committee

[Christopher Dimech]

Obviously the dude was not Eric Raymond, because he would have sent the
IBM Fuckhead an appropriate reply.  These are the developers at IBM,
who after being watched by the IBM Panopticon, they obey!

Now repeat after me,
"Whenever I hear the voice say,
'Now, listen to me, ' I will obey."
"When I hear the voice say,
'Now, listen to me, ' I will obey."

> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 7:37 PM
> From: "Eric Botcazou" <ebotcazou@libertysurf.fr>
> To: "Giacomo Tesio" <giacomo@tesio.it>
> Cc: gcc@gcc.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: On US corporate influence over Free Software and the GCC Steering Committee
>
> > Here the relevant excerpt (but please go chech the quotation):
> >
> > "As an IBM employee, you are not allowed to use your gmail account to work
> > in any way on VNIC. You are not allowed to use your personal email account
> > as a "hobby". You are an IBM employee 100% of the time.
> > Please remove yourself completely from the maintainers file. I grant you a 1
> > time exception on contributions to VNIC to make this change."
> >
> >
> > This is happened yesterday (literally).
>
> Troubling indeed, but this might just be an overzealous manager.  IBM, like
> other corporations, has made significant technical contributions to GCC over
> the years, for example the scheduler and the vectorizer, and thus has assigned
> the copyright of these contributions to the FSF.
>
> --
> Eric Botcazou
>
>
>

Re: On US corporate influence over Free Software and the GCC Steering Committee

[Eric Botcazou]

> Here the relevant excerpt (but please go chech the quotation):
> 
> "As an IBM employee, you are not allowed to use your gmail account to work
> in any way on VNIC. You are not allowed to use your personal email account
> as a "hobby". You are an IBM employee 100% of the time.
> Please remove yourself completely from the maintainers file. I grant you a 1
> time exception on contributions to VNIC to make this change."
> 
> 
> This is happened yesterday (literally).

Troubling indeed, but this might just be an overzealous manager.  IBM, like 
other corporations, has made significant technical contributions to GCC over 
the years, for example the scheduler and the vectorizer, and thus has assigned 
the copyright of these contributions to the FSF.

-- 
Eric Botcazou

On US corporate influence over Free Software and the GCC Steering Committee

[Giacomo Tesio]

Hi GCC developers,

just to further clarify why I think the current Steering Committee is highly problematic,
I'd like you to give a look at this commit
message over Linux MAINTAINERS

https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/netdev/net.git/commit/?id=4acd47644ef1e1c8f8f5bc40b7cf1c5b9bcbbc4e

Here the relevant excerpt (but please go chech the quotation):

"As an IBM employee, you are not allowed to use your gmail account to work in any way 
on VNIC. You are not allowed to use your personal email account as a "hobby". You 
are an IBM employee 100% of the time. 
Please remove yourself completely from the maintainers file. I grant you a 1 time 
exception on contributions to VNIC to make this change." 


This is happened yesterday (literally).

And while this is IBM, the other US corporations with affiliations in
the Steering Committee are no better: https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-April/235777.html

I can understand that some of you consider working for such corporations "a joy".
But for the rest of us, and to most people outside the US, their influence
over the leadership of GCC is a threat.
Please, do not create a hostile environment for indipendent contributors.

Please... please...
Fix the GCC Steering Committee.


Giacomo