RE: New Interpreter

RE: New Interpreter

[Brandon J. Van Every]

From: Richard Hunt [mailto:0102806H@student.gla.ac.uk]
> From: "Brandon J. Van Every" <vanevery@indiegamedesign.com>
>
> >Finally, Python syntax is easy for novices to swallow.
> >Forth isn't; if ficl is Forth-like that's A Bad Thing for novices.
>
> Hey, I learnt Forth when I was 12! Well, I learnt how to use
> it as a calculator, anyway...

Hey, I learned PEEKs, POKEs, the Atari 800 memory map, and 6502 Assembly
Language Programming when I was 12.  That doesn't mean the stuff is
easy, it means I was bright.  One of the main selling points of Python
is you don't have to be that bright to pick up the basics of it.  If
someone can learn Visual Basic, they can learn Python.

> I agree that forth probably wouldn't be appropriate for
> xconq, if for no other reason than porting the existing game
> files would probably take a lot longer than porting to tcl.

As I attempt to actually understand the Xconq codebase, I'm realizing
there's all sorts of interop hell to pay no matter which way we go,
whether for game design or GUIs.  I will suggest some things once I've
got a better handle on the feasibility of them.  Many of the options
will depend on political will, i.e. will people actively develop things
in a new way, or will they insist on sticking with an old way?  It is
going to be difficult / impossible, for instance, to OO-ify Xconq if
people insist on producing new C code.

> Also, assuming this integration will be quite buggy to start
> with, I have found that forth programs (nothing big) were
> pretty hard to debug.

Well, that's a strike against forth.  But "integrating" things en masse
so that they are quite buggy is a strike against methodology.  We want a
migration path where the implement / test / debug cycle is incremental.
I don't see a point in writing bugs.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.

RE: New Interpreter

[Erik Jessen]

<snip>

Well, that's a strike against forth.  But "integrating" things en masse
so that they are quite buggy is a strike against methodology.  We want a
migration path where the implement / test / debug cycle is incremental.
I don't see a point in writing bugs.

---> but, that's what the whole software industry is *all about*  !

But, I do agree - I suspect that Python will do the job - others have
used it for games, and I suspect that those people knew what they were
doing.

Erik

Re: New Interpreter

[Bruno Boettcher]

> And if this doesn't become obvious to you on cursory inspection, please
> tell me about your negative experiences in that regard.  I'm on the
i hate the syntax :D i suffered first from PL/1 in 1976 and later from
Fortran..... i don't see why such ugly stuff should creep in into modern
languages....

> marketing-python  mailing list, and we're currently having a war about
> the website redesign.  I do mean a *war*.  I'd love to have some
> ammunition about what a potential Perl convert needs to see.
heh try it... you won't see me leave perl for python, there are much
nicer OO languages out there (eiffel, java, etc.)i first besides the
fact that perl is becoming an OO language itself.

true the polymorphial and weak typing of perl can be problems, and thus
programmers need a quite strong discipline, but the codebase is immense,
most of the time really easy to use, and bindings to other libraries are
often better to use than in their native env, look at gtk which is a
extreme pain to use in C/C++ but a real pleasure in perl....


-- 
ciao bboett
==============================================================
bboett@adlp.org
http://inforezo.u-strasbg.fr/~bboett
===============================================================

RE: New Interpreter

[Erik Jessen]

I've no experience with Python whatsoever, other than petting one once
at the zoo.  :)

So, no negative feedback (or positive) - just none at all.

I'll try to look at the website at some point.

Erik

-----Original Message-----
From: xconq7-owner@sources.redhat.com
[mailto:xconq7-owner@sources.redhat.com] On Behalf Of Brandon J. Van
Every
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:24 AM
To: xconq
Subject: RE: New Interpreter

Erik Jessen wrote:
>
> Since I'm hoping to steal, err, borrow as much code as possible, if
> Python has been used a lot for that, I'd go for it first over Perl.

Python has huge code bases, web stuff, etc.
www.python.org

And if this doesn't become obvious to you on cursory inspection, please
tell me about your negative experiences in that regard.  I'm on the
marketing-python  mailing list, and we're currently having a war about
the website redesign.  I do mean a *war*.  I'd love to have some
ammunition about what a potential Perl convert needs to see.


Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

Taking risk where others will not.

Re: New Interpreter

[Eric McDonald]

Hi Mark,

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Mark A. Flacy wrote:

> http://ficl.sourceforge.net/

This appears to have some potential. I didn't see anyting about 
sandboxing Ficl VM's, but I am going to look into this some more.

Thanks for the link.

  Regards,
    Eric

RE: New Interpreter

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Mark A. Flacy wrote:
>
> If by "novice" you mean someone that knows only the C family of
> language syntax, then perhaps you are correct.  Given the
> simplicity of Forth syntax, they'd have to be pretty stupid to
> not pick it up in 20 minutes.

Or potentially, smart to decline the pleasure.  Why write only
Xconq-specific code?  Why stick Ficl on your resume when you could stick
Python?  I've never heard of anyone getting a Forth job recently.
Python jobs aren't numerous, but they are out there, and there are
people (like myself) trying to do the right things to grow the overall
Python job market.

Another consideration: more potential developers already know how to use
Python than Ficl.  That may not seem like a big deal to you, since you
claim Ficl's learning curve is trivial.  But, "Ah, I already know this,
I'm already sold on this" is an important consideration when attracting
developers.

> Perhaps you have a different goal for the Xconq scripting
> language; I'm just looking at a gdl replacement.

What about GDL needs replacing?  Bear in mind, I have no understanding
of GDL at all.  I don't know what its syntax is like, or where it sits
in the Xconq food chain.  I do know that "exteremely flexible Game
Designer stuff" is a job that Python can readily handle.  Flexibility is
the core strength of the language, it's a dynamically typed OO language
with list primitives, hash tables, blah blah blah built in.  That's my
primary reason for being interested in it.  I figure it's a good choice
for writing, say, a diplomatic AI.

I do often think that people prioritize the "speed" of a scripting
language for no particularly good reason.  In the game industry, Lua
appears to be the "au currant" scripting language for performance
purposes.  Lua vs. Python is often debated.  I must confess I haven't
heard anybody talking about Ficl or any Forth derivatives.

I don't see that Xconq's scripting language needs to be "tiny."  It's an
app, not an embedded device or boot floppy.

> If you intend to replace major portions
> of the C core, then the Python's library support may be what you want.

Yes, gradually turning Xconq into an OO codebase is a long term agenda.


Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

Taking risk where others will not.

RE: New Interpreter

[Mark A. Flacy]

>>>>> "Brandon" == Brandon J Van Every <vanevery@indiegamedesign.com> writes:
Brandon> 
Brandon> Mark A. Flacy
>> 
>> http://ficl.sourceforge.net/
Brandon> 

Brandon> How does it compare to Python for community support, libraries,
Brandon> available expertise, and proven real world use?  Particularly in
Brandon> game development?  Humongous Entertainment used to be an
Brandon> all-Python shop, they were doing adventure games and children's
Brandon> titles.  Ultima Online uses Python for its servers.  Outside of
Brandon> the game industry, Industrial Light and Magic uses Python heavily,
Brandon> as does the freeware 3D modeling / animation / rendering program
Brandon> Blender.  Also there are Python bindings for The Nebula Device,
Brandon> the Crystal Space engine, SDL, and the C++ Kyra layer on top of
Brandon> SDL.
Brandon> 
Brandon> Finally, Python syntax is easy for novices to swallow.  Forth
Brandon> isn't; if ficl is Forth-like that's A Bad Thing for novices.

I'm familiar with both languages; in fact, I've done a lot of recent
development in Python and have found it to be an excellent scripting
language. 

For a GDL replacement, I believe that FICL's worth a look.

If by "novice" you mean someone that knows only the C family of
language syntax, then perhaps you are correct.  Given the simplicity of
Forth syntax, they'd have to be pretty stupid to not pick it up in 20
minutes. 

Perhaps you have a different goal for the Xconq scripting language; I'm
just looking at a gdl replacement.  If you intend to replace major portions
of the C core, then the Python's library support may be what you want.

Ah, Emacs randomly selected a useful .sig quote.  See below.

-- 
 Mark A. Flacy
 Any opinions expressed above are my own.  Any facts expressed above
 that you could detect means my weasel wording needs work.
"The problem with Forth is not that it's bad, but that it's insanely
 great at the wrong damn things." -- Bruce R. McFarling

RE: New Interpreter

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Erik Jessen wrote:
>
> Since I'm hoping to steal, err, borrow as much code as possible, if
> Python has been used a lot for that, I'd go for it first over Perl.

Python has huge code bases, web stuff, etc.
www.python.org

And if this doesn't become obvious to you on cursory inspection, please
tell me about your negative experiences in that regard.  I'm on the
marketing-python  mailing list, and we're currently having a war about
the website redesign.  I do mean a *war*.  I'd love to have some
ammunition about what a potential Perl convert needs to see.


Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

Taking risk where others will not.

RE: New Interpreter

[Erik Jessen]

Brandon,
As I said, no idea on Python - just heard its name.
Perl is definitely more for non-game development: data-base management,
It (with Apache) is, I'm told, what's mostly used for website/database
support.

It has a huge following - there are hundreds of modules, for everything
from weather-data analysis to simple games.

Since I'm hoping to steal, err, borrow as much code as possible, if
Python has been used a lot for that, I'd go for it first over Perl.

Erik

-----Original Message-----
From: xconq7-owner@sources.redhat.com
[mailto:xconq7-owner@sources.redhat.com] On Behalf Of Brandon J. Van
Every
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 1:10 AM
To: xconq
Subject: RE: New Interpreter

Mark A. Flacy
>
> http://ficl.sourceforge.net/

How does it compare to Python for community support, libraries,
available expertise, and proven real world use?  Particularly in game
development?  Humongous Entertainment used to be an all-Python shop,
they were doing adventure games and children's titles.  Ultima Online
uses Python for its servers.  Outside of the game industry, Industrial
Light and Magic uses Python heavily, as does the freeware 3D modeling /
animation / rendering program Blender.  Also there are Python bindings
for The Nebula Device, the Crystal Space engine, SDL, and the C++ Kyra
layer on top of SDL.

Finally, Python syntax is easy for novices to swallow.  Forth isn't; if
ficl is Forth-like that's A Bad Thing for novices.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.

RE: New Interpreter

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Mark A. Flacy
>
> http://ficl.sourceforge.net/

How does it compare to Python for community support, libraries,
available expertise, and proven real world use?  Particularly in game
development?  Humongous Entertainment used to be an all-Python shop,
they were doing adventure games and children's titles.  Ultima Online
uses Python for its servers.  Outside of the game industry, Industrial
Light and Magic uses Python heavily, as does the freeware 3D modeling /
animation / rendering program Blender.  Also there are Python bindings
for The Nebula Device, the Crystal Space engine, SDL, and the C++ Kyra
layer on top of SDL.

Finally, Python syntax is easy for novices to swallow.  Forth isn't; if
ficl is Forth-like that's A Bad Thing for novices.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.

New Interpreter

[Mark A. Flacy]

http://ficl.sourceforge.net/

-- 
 Mark A. Flacy
 Any opinions expressed above are my own.  Any facts expressed above
 would imply that I know what I'm writing about.  Sometimes, I do!
"The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to
 choose from."  -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum