My apologies

My apologies

[Brandon J. Van Every]

I just had the humbling experience of throwing up all night and day.
One of those sessions where you're thinking, eh, if the lightning bolt
hits me now I won't mind.  The experience has left me unusually docile
and somewhat contemplative.  It is putting some things in my life into
perspective.

I apologize for the various insults I have delivered to you guys.
Particularly to Eric.

I have a lot of career and financial pressure right now.  I'm under a
lot of stress and it has made me a lot more ornery than is useful.  Also
I realize I've been taking the lack of responses to my questions too
personally.  As someone pointed out in different words, I'm realizing
it's not so much about clash of personality as size of project.


Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

Taking risk where others will not.

Re: My apologies

[Eric McDonald]

Brandon,

I take some risk in replying to this, knowing that you may be 
trolling for a new flamewar. But, I'll take the chance in the hope 
that you are sincere.

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:

> I apologize for the various insults I have delivered to you guys.
> Particularly to Eric.

I accept the apology, provided that is still sincere when your 
moment of weakness wears off.

> I realize I've been taking the lack of responses to my questions too
> personally.  As someone pointed out in different words, I'm realizing
> it's not so much about clash of personality as size of project.

Well, as far as I am concerned, it _is_ about a clash of 
personality. I could have easily answered any of your questions, 
but did not feel compelled to do so. By not doing so, I managed to 
avoid further time-wasting flamewars with you. And as Andreas 
pointed out, a friendly and less-condescending, less-arrogant 
attitude can go a long way.... 

Also, I think you do need to settle 
down, study the information available to you, and be less reliant 
on others (for approval and for information). Actions speak louder 
than words.

Anyway, I wish you a good recovery from alcohol poisoning; just 
don't forget what it taught you.

Eric

P.S. If you contribute something useful to the project and it 
works without breaking other things, then I think you will find 
that we can more rapidly put the past behind us.
P.P.S. I did like your "hex menu interface" idea, btw. It would 
certainly give Xconq a distinctive look and feel. The only 
modification that I would suggest, would be to punch out the 
central hex, so that the unit underneath can be seen.

RE: My apologies

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Eric wrote:
>
> I take some risk in replying to this, knowing that you may be
> trolling for a new flamewar. But, I'll take the chance in the hope
> that you are sincere.

Well, I know "The Internet is great, nobody knows you're a dog!" as the
old New Yorker (?) cartoon goes, but I think you're expressing an undue
level of paranoia here.  In all the forums I've been in over many years,
I've rarely seen anyone apologize, and the ones I have seen were always
meant.  It is not something people do every day and I've never seen it
done for troll bait.  Now, maybe I've hung out in the "wrong" forums and
you have experience to the contrary?

> > As someone pointed out in different words, I'm realizing
> > it's not so much about clash of personality as size of project.
>
> Also, I think you do need to settle
> down, study the information available to you, and be less reliant
> on others (for approval and for information). Actions speak louder
> than words.

Ok, let's at least discuss the clash of developer culture between us,
because we do definitely have that, project size and personality
differences aside.

I'm not worried about whether or not I take action.  I do.  I have a
working VS 2003 build system that proves I take action.  And, it wasn't
"a few minutes" of work as Hans claimed.  It has taken a week, that's
the more realistic scope of the project for someone who isn't intimately
familiar with the Xconq code.  It'll be a solid week, or possibly even 2
weeks, when / if I incorporate a Windows packaging system.  I haven't
looked at that yet.

As I take action, I want others to facilitate my action.  That, in my
view, is the point of working with other people.  Otherwise, I could
very easily be working solo on my own 4X TBS.  I may yet do that,
because I'm not sure at this point if Xconq is a good framework for my
project goals.  I will know in a few days one way or the other.

What facilitates my action?  Taking 2 minutes to answer my easy
questions in a timely manner.  What does not?  Poring over archives of
ancient / meandering discussions and haphazardly placed / incomplete
docs to dig out gory details.  That takes me an hour.  That's an hour
that could be better spent on implementing or fixing something.

Succinctly, I do not believe in the "Why don't you just bang your head
against the wall harder?" school of programming.  I believe in asking
easy questions that people can promptly answer.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.

RE: My apologies

[Eric McDonald]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:

> Well, I know "The Internet is great, nobody knows you're a dog!" as the
> old New Yorker (?) cartoon goes, but I think you're expressing an undue
> level of paranoia here.  

I think tomorrow will tell. And the days after that.
Given your past behavior on this list, I think the burden of proof 
is squarely upon you.

> > Also, I think you do need to settle
> > down, study the information available to you, and be less reliant
> > on others (for approval and for information). Actions speak louder
> > than words.
> 
> Ok, let's at least discuss the clash of developer culture between us,

Hopefully this won't turn back into a flamewar. If it does, you'll 
be seeing a stone wall again (at least from me).

> I'm not worried about whether or not I take action.  I do.  I have a
> working VS 2003 build system that proves I take action.  

Well, if you want to contribute to the Xconq project and show a 
bit of goodwill, you could show us your project to see if it is 
something worth adding....

If we do accept it, then you will have done at least two things:
(1) You will have made a contribution. (And that is something to 
feel good about.)
(2) You will have paved another path for future Windows 
developers.

>And, it wasn't
> "a few minutes" of work as Hans claimed.  It has taken a week, that's
> the more realistic scope of the project for someone who isn't intimately
> familiar with the Xconq code.

Not really.
When I joined this project about 5 months ago, the Windows build 
process was much rougher than the state in which you found it. I 
first attempted a Windows build maybe a month and a half after I 
had joined; I was by no means intimately familiar with the code. 
Most of my work up to that point had been documentation (I also 
did track down a segfault and fix that, and I fixed some X11 
errors with the Tcl/Tk interface.) Back then, there was a 'win' 
directory and it had a makefile template (Makefile.in). There was 
no INSTALL-win. To build Xconq and get it to actually link, I had 
to copy over tkwin32.o from the 'tcltk' directory and rename to 
'main.o' (iirc), plus I had to provide a working Tcl/Tk. I 
initially tried the one that came with my Cygwin. The results were 
not pleasant, so I got the ActiveState Tcl/Tk, and linked against 
those libs. I managed to figure all of this out in what amounted 
to an 1 hr 20 min of my time, not 2 weeks. Furthermore, I did not 
bitch out everyone on the list because it didn't automagically 
just build. All it took was some thinking and a little bit of 
work....

> weeks, when / if I incorporate a Windows packaging system.  I haven't
> looked at that yet.

By Windows packaging system, you mean what?

> As I take action, I want others to facilitate my action.  That, in my
> view, is the point of working with other people.  

It is also a two-way street.

> What facilitates my action?  Taking 2 minutes to answer my easy
> questions in a timely manner.  

Some of your questions looked very much like troll bait, given 
your past outbursts on this list.

>What does not?  Poring over archives of
> ancient / meandering discussions

Many of which are still quite relevant and useful. Again, use the 
list search engine and the 'Thread Next' links.

> and haphazardly placed 

If you are referring to the fact that the INSTALL-win.txt mentions 
the SDL interface and its status, then you should know that I did 
not intend that to be the _only_ place that one could find such 
information. Again, RTFLA. I merely mentioned it there to aid a 
new developer in deciding what to build.

> Succinctly, I do not believe in the "Why don't you just bang your head
> against the wall harder?" school of programming.  

Nor do I. Nor is that what we are about.

>I believe in asking
> easy questions that people can promptly answer.

You should not necessarily expect a prompt answer. We have other 
things to do, like working at our jobs, for example. Also, I think 
it is rather egocentric and selfish to basically tell people that 
they are your personal encyclopediae, especially when you can get 
a more comprehensive view by just sitting down and digesting the 
information available, and doing this rather gratifying thing 
known as "problem solving".

FYI, I was a commercial Windows developer for a few years, and I 
worked with guys who actually liked Microsoft. Even there, the 
culture you are pushing did not exist. People were generally 
expected to solve their own problems.

Eric

RE: My apologies

[Brandon J. Van Every]

From: Eric McDonald [mailto:mcdonald@phy.cmich.edu]
>
> Hopefully this won't turn back into a flamewar. If it does, you'll
> be seeing a stone wall again (at least from me).

For someone who doesn't want a flamewar, you sure say a lot of pointed
things.

> > I'm not worried about whether or not I take action.  I do.  I have a
> > working VS 2003 build system that proves I take action.
>
> Well, if you want to contribute to the Xconq project and show a
> bit of goodwill, you could show us your project to see if it is
> something worth adding....

You are confusing me here.  If you are saying you don't believe I've
done what I said, I find that totally bizzare.  If there is even debate
about whether a VS 2003 build system is worthwhile, we have a bigger
clash of developer culture than I imagined.  Maybe there is a 3rd
possibility that you're worried I didn't set it up in a good style.  I
did... but I suppose you wouldn't know that.  Anyways, the point is moot
because as far as I can tell, you don't have any Windows developers.
I'd be Da Man.

The build system works but is not ready for checkin quite yet.  I had to
change 2 #ifdefs and I need to decide what the "proper" way to change
those is.  At the time, I went for the expedient way.

> > And, it wasn't
> > "a few minutes" of work as Hans claimed.  It has taken a
> > week, that's
> > the more realistic scope of the project for someone who
> > isn't intimately familiar with the Xconq code.
>
> Not really.
> [...] I initially tried the one that came with my Cygwin. [...]

I have made a *VS 2003* build.  You realize that this is a MS Solution +
Projects system, not a Cygwin makefile, yes?  There is no such thing as
simply importing a makefile and hey presto.  Everything has to be done
manually.

> Furthermore, I did not
> bitch out everyone on the list because it didn't automagically
> just build.

You have been given an apology.  Accepting an apology means moving on.

> > weeks, when / if I incorporate a Windows packaging system.
> > I haven't looked at that yet.
>
> By Windows packaging system, you mean what?

Something that automagically builds a Windows Xconq binary package for
an end user.

> Some of your questions looked very much like troll bait, given
> your past outbursts on this list.

I have given you clarification of my intents at several junctures.

> Many of which are still quite relevant and useful. Again, use the
> list search engine and the 'Thread Next' links.
>
> > and haphazardly placed
>
> If you are referring to the fact that the INSTALL-win.txt mentions
> the SDL interface and its status, then you should know that I did
> not intend that to be the _only_ place that one could find such
> information. Again, RTFLA. I merely mentioned it there to aid a
> new developer in deciding what to build.

As I said before, I both LFTFM and STFLA to a degree warranted.  I am
not going to spend an hour RTFLA when someone could easily answer my
question in 2 minutes.  They weren't difficult questions, they were "Is
the SDL client supposed to be incomplete?" and "Who is your SDL guy?"

> >I believe in asking
> > easy questions that people can promptly answer.
>
> You should not necessarily expect a prompt answer. We have other
> things to do, like working at our jobs, for example. Also, I think
> it is rather egocentric and selfish to basically tell people that
> they are your personal encyclopediae,

That's quite a tar brush you're carrying there.  Incidentally, bigger
open source projects often use IRC for lightweight communication.

> especially when you can get
> a more comprehensive view by just sitting down and digesting the
> information available, and doing this rather gratifying thing
> known as "problem solving".

I think at this point, you and others either agree or disagree about
what a Complete Waste Of Time is and what isn't.  My willingness to
contribute to Xconq is directly predicated upon avoiding Complete Wastes
Of Time.  If I find that silence and/or sluggishness of response is
often holding up the works when it really shouldn't, then I will find
something else to do.

> FYI, I was a commercial Windows developer for a few years, and I
> worked with guys who actually liked Microsoft.

At what point did I say I like Microsoft?  I simply think Windows is a
more relevant game platform than Linux or Mac, because of Microsoft's
monopoly power being what it is.  So does the non-console game industry.
I do think there's a teeny tiny list of things Microsoft is doing better
than the other guys: (1) the .NET Intermediate Language layer, (2)
DirectX vertex and pixel shaders (3) ease of use compared to Linux, if
not Mac.

> Even there, the
> culture you are pushing did not exist. People were generally
> expected to solve their own problems.

An anecdote of one company.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.