your CVS and testing culture?

your CVS and testing culture?

[Brandon J. Van Every]

It has been suggested privately to me that I'm "throwing rocks" at
Xconq.  What I'm really trying to do, is trigger frank discussion about
minor tweaks that I could actually "fix" in short order.  But I can't
fix anything until I know whether something is regarded as a bug, a
wart, or a feature.  Your frank comments please...

So, what is your CVS and testing culture?

Myself, I am a source control + testing fanatic.  I believe very
strongly in micro-incremental development using source control.  Check
out code, make a very small change, test it, check it in.  Wet, lather,
rinse, repeat, dozens of times a day.  Using this approach in my own
work, I've almost never put a bug into my source pool.  At least not in
any trivial way.  Sometimes I've made a major conceptual mistake when
the design gets complicated, but that will happen to anybody.  And
usually, my designs are KISS.

In other news, I've got everything but the SDL app built in VS 2003.
The latter is no great issue, it's just a question of what the "proper"
way to install SDL is on my machine to prevent DLL type mismatches.
This has not been a labor of "a few minutes" BTW, it has been a 2 day
project so far.  It builds; I still haven't tested whether it actually
works.  Once it does work, I'm sure it'll be another 2 days to
incorporate an installation packaging project.


Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

Taking risk where others will not.

Re: your CVS and testing culture?

[Andreas Bringedal]

> It has been suggested privately to me that I'm "throwing rocks" at
> Xconq.  What I'm really trying to do, is trigger frank discussion about
> minor tweaks that I could actually "fix" in short order.  But I can't
> fix anything until I know whether something is regarded as a bug, a
> wart, or a feature.  Your frank comments please...
>
> So, what is your CVS and testing culture?


Brandon,


I agree in much of your criticism of how the game works.  I was very keen on
getting Xconq earlier this year after having discovered a windows platform
for it.  I played it some 10 years ago under a Unix system and I loved it.
This was version 5.0 or 5.4, I don't remember quite.  Anyway I was so
disappointed with the new version when I finally got it working that I
didn't play it more than a few times.  Serious rewamping of the game
interface are needed as are some standard game parameters(way to many cities
which creates monster games with too many units that has to be moved to the
front).  If the interface had been made intuitive and the layout of the main
screen with focus on getting a better overview and easier control over one's
position it would be a far far better game.

Particulary the city hex where every unit is attempted to be displayed are
horrible.  It should instead have a small window in the lower area of the
map where everything inside the city are displayed.  I also seriously
dislike the half finished builds that clutter and block the area around
cities.  Units produced should only be placed inside the city but there
should also be an option to set a gather point for the units a city
produce(ie for instance near the front or another city).

There should also be a warning if you attempt to fly beyond your fuel range
that you could turn on or off in preferences.  Ie a "Do you want to
continue?" warning when flying beyond fuel range. There were a lot of other
things I though about that would imo make the game better but the developers
seemed very busy so I didn't say anything before now.

So I feel very strongly that you're NOT throwing rocks at Xconq but are
starting a much needed development process toward a more balanced game.
This process should also include a development toward a more sofisticated
game interface. Without a better game interface xconq will just get more
left behind as time goes on.  Playability(a facet of a sofisticated game)
are one of the pillars which a game rests upon and should be the prime focus
for all game creators imo.  If you can't point out areas that don't work
well you can't get a constructive environment for how to improve the game.
This is very destructive for the game. IE those complaining about you
throwing rocks at xconq is doing xconq a disservice.

However I found the Morghulsoft breath comment quite amusing as you do have
a rare and underappreciated combination of being obnoxious and condecending
;-)  Perhaps a little less belitteling of others would be possible?  It just
causes a lot of anger and is not particulary constructive, unless you want
to start a fist fight in which case it would be particulary constructive.
Perhaps this was what those that mailed you were thinking of when they
criticised you?

Now I remembered my most important improvement idea.  Cities should be able
to transfer their production points to other cities.  This would simulate
naval construction yards, factory areas or soldier training schools/camps.
For instance in the United States under the second world war each and every
seaside city did NOT have the ability to build battleships.  Resources were
poured in from all over the country to specific construction yards.  The
benefit in Xconq of this production transfer and thereby centralization of
construction is to severely reduce the tedious management aspect of the game
which makes it extremely much leaner.  I think the easiest would be to have
a central pool of all production points and then allow the player to choose
a city and decide how much resources it want to extract from the pool per
turn(either in percentage or plain numeric values). As many cities as you
want can extract resources from the central pool but of course not more than
are available.  There are many extra options that can be added later on when
the basic structure is working, for instance a national standard build
profile which would allow a player to set all cities (those you already own
and those you conquer in the future) to automaticly produce what's in the
profile, for instance lvl 2 stationary air defense(stronger than mobile air
defense and it is a feature of the city and not a unit in the city although
it can be destroyed or reduced like a unit), lvl 1 ground
defense(fortifications), 1 fighter(on intercept duty), 2 infantry.  This
eliminates the need to make sure every damn city has a basic defense which
is a pain in the ass when you have a hundred cities!!  Particulary Civ III
could have been far better with a more sofisticated game systems like this.
I found that game nearly unplayable!  I think you also pointed out civ had a
lot of tedious management chores that you didn't like. National standard
build profile would be fun! Let's get this for Xconq!


Well, I'll stop now before people fall asleep...

Andreas


PS  And remember that my mail can be ignored without repercussions

Re: your CVS and testing culture?

[Eric McDonald]

Andreas,

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Andreas Bringedal wrote:

> didn't play it more than a few times.  Serious rewamping of the game
> interface are needed as are some standard game parameters(way to many cities
> which creates monster games with too many units that has to be moved to the
> front).

Personally, I have many hopes for the new SDL interface, which I 
hope to contribute to once the 7.6 release cycle is underway. Some 
other things can be done to the Tcl/Tk interface, such a unit 
creation dialog window, and an occupant display window, as you 
suggest below.

> screen with focus on getting a better overview and easier control over one's
> position it would be a far far better game.

From what I've seen and heard, the Mac interface is superior in 
this regard.

> cities.  Units produced should only be placed inside the city but there
> should also be an option to set a gather point for the units a city
> produce(ie for instance near the front or another city).

This feature already exists.

> There should also be a warning if you attempt to fly beyond your fuel range
> that you could turn on or off in preferences.  Ie a "Do you want to
> continue?" warning when flying beyond fuel range.

In the Tcl/Tk interface, the SupplyLow indicator gets set, and 
automatic movement is interrupted when it reaches this point.

> There were a lot of other
> things I though about that would imo make the game better but the developers
> seemed very busy so I didn't say anything before now.

Please do not hesitate to give _constructive_ feedback. We may not 
be able to address everything at once, but we are certainly 
willing to discuss ideas. You may find that we share many of those 
same ideas, but just have not had time to work on them yet. ;-)

> However I found the Morghulsoft breath comment quite amusing as you do have
> a rare and underappreciated combination of being obnoxious and condecending
> ;-)

"Underappreciated"? Surely you meant "unappreciated".

> Now I remembered my most important improvement idea.  Cities should be able
> to transfer their production points to other cities.  This would simulate
> naval construction yards, factory areas or soldier training schools/camps.

This can be simulated in a game module. I considered this approach 
in Bellum Aeternum, and briefly tried that when I was developing 
it. I may yet go back to that, but not before the 7.5 release.

> which makes it extremely much leaner.  I think the easiest would be to have
> a central pool of all production points and then allow the player to choose
> a city and decide how much resources it want to extract from the pool per
> turn(either in percentage or plain numeric values). As many cities as you

Again, this is largely possible with Xconq. One would need to make 
use of side treasuries (global supply pools).

> lot of tedious management chores that you didn't like. National standard
> build profile would be fun! Let's get this for Xconq!

Your feature request has been filed for future reference.

  Thanks for the ideas,
    Eric

RE: your CVS and testing culture?

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Andreas Bringedal wrote:
>
> Particulary the city hex where every unit is attempted to be
> displayed are
> horrible.  It should instead have a small window in the lower
> area of the
> map where everything inside the city are displayed.

Andreas, I agree with most of your comments about UI design.  UI is the
first thing the newbie experiences, and if it's not good UI, the newbie
is quickly turned off.  Then you don't have growth of the Xconq player
or developer base.  I'd be interested in contributing to "better UI"
because speading up 4X games is my primary agenda as a game developer.
I haven't looked at the SDL client yet, but I will shortly.  I think
messing with Tk is probably a dead end.


Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

Taking risk where others will not.

Re: your CVS and testing culture?

[Andreas Bringedal]

> "Underappreciated"? Surely you meant "unappreciated".

Unappreciated sounds so nakedly negative and confrontational.
Underappreciated has a more ironic was of saying it isn't particulary
unappreciated.   ....it's just my weak form of humour to try to soften
criticism....

A

RE: your CVS and testing culture?

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Andreas Bringedal wrote:
> Eric wrote:
> >
> > "Underappreciated"? Surely you meant "unappreciated".
>
> Unappreciated sounds so nakedly negative and confrontational.
> Underappreciated has a more ironic was of saying it isn't particulary
> unappreciated.   ....it's just my weak form of humour to try to soften
> criticism....

You know, unlike a lot of people, I'm not afraid to tell people that
something sucks.  There's a time for being nice and there's a time for
telling people what's not up to snuff.  Take, for instance, your Windows
build.  The only caveat I can think of is it may not suck "for you."  It
most certainly sucks for any mainstream Windows developer looking to get
involved in Xconq however.  Maybe you don't basically value getting more
developers on your project, but you're not going to get any Windows
developers by making a Windows build every once in awhile by
hook-or-crook.

It looks like if I joined your project, I'd be the only Windows
developer.  Am I wrong?


Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

Taking risk where others will not.

Re: your CVS and testing culture?

[Andreas Bringedal]

I appreciate candour but that can also be done without rudeness which is
quite a difference.  It might _feel_ like a minor difference but saying
'this piece of coding isn't up to today's standards' instead of 'this sucks
and are the worst kind of crap programming I've seen in ages' (not that you
said that specificly) makes for a much more pleasant working environment for
others as well as gaining you much more support for the changes you'd want
done.  Already some time has been spent quarreling and building
resentment...

I believe you may be quite competent(although I know so little about
programming that I can't really tell for sure) and therefore would be a
great asset to xconq's development. I'd love to see those developments that
you could make. (although I'm 99.99% inactive regarding xconq so my opinions
aren't worth much :-)


Cheers,
Andreas


> You know, unlike a lot of people, I'm not afraid to tell people that
> something sucks.  There's a time for being nice and there's a time for
> telling people what's not up to snuff.  Take, for instance, your Windows
> build.  The only caveat I can think of is it may not suck "for you."  It
> most certainly sucks for any mainstream Windows developer looking to get
> involved in Xconq however.  Maybe you don't basically value getting more
> developers on your project, but you're not going to get any Windows
> developers by making a Windows build every once in awhile by
> hook-or-crook.
>
> It looks like if I joined your project, I'd be the only Windows
> developer.  Am I wrong?
>
>
> Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
> Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA
>
> Taking risk where others will not.
>
>

Burying the hatchet

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Andreas Bringedal wrote:
>
> I appreciate candour but that can also be done without
> rudeness which is
> quite a difference.  It might _feel_ like a minor difference
> but saying
> 'this piece of coding isn't up to today's standards' instead
> of 'this sucks
> and are the worst kind of crap programming I've seen in ages'
> (not that you said that specificly)

I have never said the coding sucks.  I did say the Windows build
methodology sucks, in very unkind terms.  What I think happened is, I
had a very frustrating week with lotsa open source Unix-on-Windows stuff
that didn't work, and Eric and I managed to seriously get on each
other's nerves.  I am willing to put the matter behind us.  To the
credit of whomever occasionally *programs* the Windows code, it does
build with only 2 #ifdefs changed.  I still haven't verified if it
works, I've been very busy the past few days.


Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

Taking risk where others will not.