CYGWIN=tty round 2

CYGWIN=tty round 2

[Christopher Faylor]

I don't think we saw anyone step forward with a valid reason why they
needed to use CYGWIN=tty over something like "mintty".

I've summarized the thread where Corinna asked why people used CYGWIN=tty
over CYGWIN=notty below.

I don't see any showstoppers here so unless people can provide specific
examples of how this change would cause hardwhip, we'll be removing
CYGWIN=tty in a snapshot near you soon.

Summary:

0) There was some confusion over what Corinna meant by CYGWIN=notty.

Response: Corinna thought (as did I) that people would understand that
CYGWIN=notty is the default.  It's what you get if you haven't added
"tty" to the CYGWIN environment variable.  And, if you don't know what
any of that means then this whole discussion is not something that you
have to worry about.

1) People thought that because CYGWIN=tty was mentioned in an example in
the documentation, it was actually a recommendation.

Response: It was not a recommendation (if it was it would have been the
default).  It has been removed from the documentation.

2) screen needs CYGWIN=tty for reattach to work.

Response: Use "mintty".  Or, possibly proposed changes for 9 below will
cause reattach to work with screen.

3) emacs requires CYGWIN=tty for CTRL-C to work.

Response: Use "mintty".  Long-term possibly get CTRL-C working with the
cygwin console.

4) sshd requires CYGWIN=tty.

Response: Pure unadulterated rumor.  This was never the case unless you
needed to inexplicably slow down sshd for some unknown reason.

5) brltty might need it.

Response: brltty doesn't need it.

6) "It made something I cared about work properly and four M$ operating
systems later..."

Response: Use mintty or provide a specific example of failure.

7) There's a bug in Cygwin's console handling.

Response: We'll (eventually) fix the bug.

8) "Not a power user and don't understand the question"

Response: Don't worry about it then.  You probably aren't using the setting.

9) With CYGWIN=tty, each console window gets its own /dev/ttyN.  For
console windows everything gets /dev/console and, so, there is no way to
distinguish between console windows.

Response: Cygwin will be changed to cause each console window to have its own
unique /dev/consN numbering, similar to /dev/ttyN.

10) The non-cygwin application "jam" inexplicably seems to require it for proper
operation.

Response: One workaround was suggested when dealing with console mode but it
seems that mintty would also cause jam to work ok as well.

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Re: CYGWIN=tty round 2

[Yaakov (Cygwin/X)]

On Sun, 2011-05-22 at 17:19 -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> I don't think we saw anyone step forward with a valid reason why they
> needed to use CYGWIN=tty over something like "mintty".
> 
> I've summarized the thread where Corinna asked why people used CYGWIN=tty
> over CYGWIN=notty below.
> 
> I don't see any showstoppers here so unless people can provide specific
> examples of how this change would cause hardwhip, we'll be removing
> CYGWIN=tty in a snapshot near you soon.

I could add XWin:

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=9763

And once again, using mintty is a solution.

Since mintty is the solution to so many of these scenarios, shouldn't we
make it the default terminal (IOW add mintty to Base and replace the
Cygwin.bat shortcut with mintty's)?  The status quo just encourages
people to use a deficient terminal without any idea that a better one
exists.


Yaakov



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Re: CYGWIN=tty round 2

[Christopher Faylor]

On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 09:53:12PM -0500, Yaakov (Cygwin/X) wrote:
>On Sun, 2011-05-22 at 17:19 -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>I don't think we saw anyone step forward with a valid reason why they
>>needed to use CYGWIN=tty over something like "mintty".
>>
>>I've summarized the thread where Corinna asked why people used
>>CYGWIN=tty over CYGWIN=notty below.
>>
>>I don't see any showstoppers here so unless people can provide specific
>>examples of how this change would cause hardwhip, we'll be removing
>>CYGWIN=tty in a snapshot near you soon.
>
>I could add XWin:
>
>http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=9763
>
>And once again, using mintty is a solution.
>
>Since mintty is the solution to so many of these scenarios, shouldn't
>we make it the default terminal (IOW add mintty to Base and replace the
>Cygwin.bat shortcut with mintty's)?  The status quo just encourages
>people to use a deficient terminal without any idea that a better one
>exists.

I may be missing something but I don't see how the above is not a bug.
The symptom was mentioned in the previous thread.  Unless xwin.exe goes
out of its way to reattach to its calling console (by doing something
similar to what setup.exe does) there is no stdout/stderr to write to.
Windows resets the stdin/stdout/stderr of Windows GUI apps which are run
from a console.

cgf

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Re: CYGWIN=tty round 2

[Sven Köhler]

Am 22.05.2011 23:19, schrieb Christopher Faylor:
> mintty

I have the feeling, you should make mintty default :-)
(for startup menu shortcuts, etc.)


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Re: CYGWIN=tty round 2

[David Sastre]

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On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 11:35:40AM +0200, Sven Köhler wrote:
> Am 22.05.2011 23:19, schrieb Christopher Faylor:
> > mintty
> 
> I have the feeling, you should make mintty default :-)
> (for startup menu shortcuts, etc.)

http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-apps/2010-05/msg00082.html

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Re: CYGWIN=tty round 2

[Andy Koppe]

On 23 May 2011 03:53, Yaakov wrote:
>> I've summarized the thread where Corinna asked why people used CYGWIN=tty
>> over CYGWIN=notty below.
>>
>> I don't see any showstoppers here so unless people can provide specific
>> examples of how this change would cause hardwhip, we'll be removing
>> CYGWIN=tty in a snapshot near you soon.
>
> I could add XWin:
>
> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=9763

"For some reason which I have yet to investigate, XWin requires a tty to
the log to the terminal.  That means it will output to terminal in VTs,
but will not work in ordinary cmd/bash shells without setting
CYGWIN=tty; instead you will see a cmd window briefly flashing on screen
when launched."

The reason is that XWin.exe is built with -Wl,--subsystem,windows (or
-mwindows, which implies it), which allows it to be invoked directly
from a shortcut or the Run.. dialog without popping up a console or
requiring a console hiding hack. (It's the same for mintty.)

The downside is that Windows also won't hook it up to the parent
process's console, even if there is one, and hence there's nowhere for
Cygwin to hook the standard file descriptors up to.

Having said that, XP introduced the AttachConsole() function, which
allows hooking up to the parent's console by pasing
'ATTACH_PARENT_PROCESS' as the paremeter. It would be very nice if the
Cygwin DLL could try that (followed by CreateFile("CONIN$"/"CONOUT$",
...)) when GetStdHandle returns an invalid handle while initialising
the standard file descriptors.

Andy

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Re: CYGWIN=tty round 2

[Corinna Vinschen]

On May 23 12:49, Andy Koppe wrote:
> The reason is that XWin.exe is built with -Wl,--subsystem,windows (or
> -mwindows, which implies it), which allows it to be invoked directly
> from a shortcut or the Run.. dialog without popping up a console or
> requiring a console hiding hack. (It's the same for mintty.)
> 
> The downside is that Windows also won't hook it up to the parent
> process's console, even if there is one, and hence there's nowhere for
> Cygwin to hook the standard file descriptors up to.
> 
> Having said that, XP introduced the AttachConsole() function, which
> allows hooking up to the parent's console by pasing
> 'ATTACH_PARENT_PROCESS' as the paremeter.

That doesn't work as expected.  I found that GetStdHandle does not
return INVALID_HANDLE_VALUE.  Rather, the handle looks like a normal
console handle.  Calling GetFileType then returns FILE_TYPE_UNKNOWN
and GetLastError () returns ERROR_INVALID_HANDLE.  I used that to
add this code:

Index: dtable.cc
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvs/src/src/winsup/cygwin/dtable.cc,v
retrieving revision 1.221
diff -u -p -r1.221 dtable.cc
--- dtable.cc	5 May 2011 22:30:53 -0000	1.221
+++ dtable.cc	23 May 2011 15:35:49 -0000
@@ -282,7 +282,10 @@ dtable::init_std_file_from_handle (int f
   char name[NT_MAX_PATH];
   name[0] = '\0';
   if (ft == FILE_TYPE_UNKNOWN && GetLastError () == ERROR_INVALID_HANDLE)
-    /* can't figure out what this is */;
+    {
+      if (AttachConsole (-1) || GetLastError () == ERROR_ACCESS_DENIED)
+	dev = *console_dev;
+    }
   else if (ft == FILE_TYPE_PIPE)
     {
       int rcv = 0, len = sizeof (int);

In thoery that should attach to the console and open the console
handles for stdin/out/err.

The effect:

- Started from CMD, XWin prints log output to the console.

- Started from bash or tcsh, no output.

- Mintty doesn't start at all.

That doesn't look overly promising.  It might be better if XWin itself
tries the AttachConsole/CreateFile("CONOUT$") thingy instead, otherwise
we might end up with some overly complex startup code(*) just for the
benefit of a single application.


Corinna


(*) Insert "which already is overly complex" here.

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Corinna Vinschen                  Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to
Cygwin Project Co-Leader          cygwin AT cygwin DOT com
Red Hat

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Re: CYGWIN=tty round 2

[Christopher Faylor]

[sorry.  I don't seem to be able to send a typo-free message lat3ly.]
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 02:02:04AM -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 09:53:12PM -0500, Yaakov (Cygwin/X) wrote:
>>On Sun, 2011-05-22 at 17:19 -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>>I don't think we saw anyone step forward with a valid reason why they
>>>needed to use CYGWIN=tty over something like "mintty".
>>>
>>>I've summarized the thread where Corinna asked why people used
>>>CYGWIN=tty over CYGWIN=notty below.
>>>
>>>I don't see any showstoppers here so unless people can provide specific
>>>examples of how this change would cause hardwhip, we'll be removing
>>>CYGWIN=tty in a snapshot near you soon.
>>
>>I could add XWin:
>>
>>http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=9763
>>
>>And once again, using mintty is a solution.
>>
>>Since mintty is the solution to so many of these scenarios, shouldn't
>>we make it the default terminal (IOW add mintty to Base and replace the
>>Cygwin.bat shortcut with mintty's)?  The status quo just encourages
>>people to use a deficient terminal without any idea that a better one
>>exists.
>
>I may be missing something but I don't see how the above is not a bug.
                                                          is a bug.

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Re: CYGWIN=tty round 2

[Ryan Johnson]

On 22/05/2011 10:53 PM, Yaakov (Cygwin/X) wrote:
> On Sun, 2011-05-22 at 17:19 -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> I don't think we saw anyone step forward with a valid reason why they
>> needed to use CYGWIN=tty over something like "mintty".
>>
>> I've summarized the thread where Corinna asked why people used CYGWIN=tty
>> over CYGWIN=notty below.
>>
>> I don't see any showstoppers here so unless people can provide specific
>> examples of how this change would cause hardwhip, we'll be removing
>> CYGWIN=tty in a snapshot near you soon.
> I could add XWin:
>
> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=9763
>
> And once again, using mintty is a solution.
>
> Since mintty is the solution to so many of these scenarios, shouldn't we
> make it the default terminal (IOW add mintty to Base and replace the
> Cygwin.bat shortcut with mintty's)?  The status quo just encourages
> people to use a deficient terminal without any idea that a better one
> exists.
I would be happy to see mintty as the default. Since discovering it I 
essentially stopped using X because xterm was my main reason for firing 
it up.

However... isn't there some dire warning that gdb only will ever work 
properly (some of the time) from within a vanilla console window? 
Something to do with ^C handling?

Mind you, I'd love that restriction to be lifted, but it sounded pretty 
hard and fast the last few times the topic came up. On the other hand, 
most casual cygwin users won't be needing gdb often, if ever, so that 
might not be enough reason to keep the console over mintty.

Ryan


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Re: CYGWIN=tty round 2

[Christopher Faylor]

On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 07:21:16PM -0400, Ryan Johnson wrote:
>On 22/05/2011 10:53 PM, Yaakov (Cygwin/X) wrote:
>>On Sun, 2011-05-22 at 17:19 -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>>I don't think we saw anyone step forward with a valid reason why they
>>>needed to use CYGWIN=tty over something like "mintty".
>>>
>>>I've summarized the thread where Corinna asked why people used
>>>CYGWIN=tty over CYGWIN=notty below.
>>>
>>>I don't see any showstoppers here so unless people can provide specific
>>>examples of how this change would cause hardwhip, we'll be removing
>>>CYGWIN=tty in a snapshot near you soon.
>>I could add XWin:
>>
>>http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=9763
>>
>>And once again, using mintty is a solution.
>>
>>Since mintty is the solution to so many of these scenarios, shouldn't
>>we make it the default terminal (IOW add mintty to Base and replace the
>>Cygwin.bat shortcut with mintty's)?  The status quo just encourages
>>people to use a deficient terminal without any idea that a better one
>>exists.
>I would be happy to see mintty as the default.  Since discovering it I
>essentially stopped using X because xterm was my main reason for firing
>it up.
>
>However...  isn't there some dire warning that gdb only will ever work
>properly (some of the time) from within a vanilla console window?
>Something to do with ^C handling?
>
>Mind you, I'd love that restriction to be lifted, but it sounded pretty
>hard and fast the last few times the topic came up.  On the other hand,
>most casual cygwin users won't be needing gdb often, if ever, so that
>might not be enough reason to keep the console over mintty.

Can we PLEASE stay on topic?

This has nothing to do with CYGWIN=tty.  If gdb didn't work in mintty it
wouldn't work with CYGWIN=tty either.

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Re: CYGWIN=tty round 2

[Ryan Johnson]

On 24/05/2011 2:22 AM, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 07:21:16PM -0400, Ryan Johnson wrote:
>> On 22/05/2011 10:53 PM, Yaakov (Cygwin/X) wrote:
>>> On Sun, 2011-05-22 at 17:19 -0400, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>>> I don't think we saw anyone step forward with a valid reason why they
>>>> needed to use CYGWIN=tty over something like "mintty".
>>>>
>>>> I've summarized the thread where Corinna asked why people used
>>>> CYGWIN=tty over CYGWIN=notty below.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any showstoppers here so unless people can provide specific
>>>> examples of how this change would cause hardwhip, we'll be removing
>>>> CYGWIN=tty in a snapshot near you soon.
>>> I could add XWin:
>>>
>>> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=9763
>>>
>>> And once again, using mintty is a solution.
>>>
>>> Since mintty is the solution to so many of these scenarios, shouldn't
>>> we make it the default terminal (IOW add mintty to Base and replace the
>>> Cygwin.bat shortcut with mintty's)?  The status quo just encourages
>>> people to use a deficient terminal without any idea that a better one
>>> exists.
>> I would be happy to see mintty as the default.  Since discovering it I
>> essentially stopped using X because xterm was my main reason for firing
>> it up.
>>
>> However...  isn't there some dire warning that gdb only will ever work
>> properly (some of the time) from within a vanilla console window?
>> Something to do with ^C handling?
>>
>> Mind you, I'd love that restriction to be lifted, but it sounded pretty
>> hard and fast the last few times the topic came up.  On the other hand,
>> most casual cygwin users won't be needing gdb often, if ever, so that
>> might not be enough reason to keep the console over mintty.
> Can we PLEASE stay on topic?
>
> This has nothing to do with CYGWIN=tty.  If gdb didn't work in mintty it
> wouldn't work with CYGWIN=tty either.
Sorry... I got distracted by the mintty-as-default tangent.

Back on topic, I have never used CYGWIN=tty (I kept forgetting to set it 
even when directed to do so by various inaccurate how-tos out ther) and 
would not miss it.

Ryan


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Re: CYGWIN=tty round 2

[Christopher Faylor]

On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 11:24:21PM +0200, Angelo Graziosi wrote:
>Following this thread and the similar
>
>   http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-apps/2011-05/msg00041.html
>
>I want to flag that this:
>
>/cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/runas.exe /user:pippo 'C:\cygwin-2\bin\bash 
>--login -i'
>
>works in a dos-like shell (Cygwin.bat) but not in mintty. Is there some 
>trick to do the job also in mintty?

This has nothing to do with CYGWIN=tty.

No one is saying that you won't be able to type "bash" at in a CMD
window and have it work.  And, no one is saying that cygwin.bat will
stop working.

cgf

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RE: CYGWIN=tty round 2

[Angelo Graziosi]

Hi Eric,

> but this works for me to get a shell running under the proper user:
>
> runas /user:proddev\bldmgr "c:\cygwin\bin\mintty.exe -"

yes, also for me, but *only* from Cygwin.bat shell not from MinTTY: here 
it asks for password and return the prompt without waiting for password 
typing.

I would like to start MinTTY, running under the proper user, from MinTTY 
and not from Cygwin.bat.

Ciao,
Angelo.

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RE: CYGWIN=tty round 2

[Fahlgren, Eric]

Angelo Graziosi wrote:
> /cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/runas.exe /user:pippo 'C:\cygwin-2\bin\bash --login -i'
>
> works in a dos-like shell (Cygwin.bat) but not in mintty. Is there some trick to do the job also in mintty?

Angelo,

I'm not completely sure about what you are trying to do, but this works for me to get a shell running under the proper user:

$ cat bldmgr.bat
 runas /user:proddev\bldmgr "c:\cygwin\bin\mintty.exe -"

Eric Fahlgren

Re: CYGWIN=tty round 2

[Angelo Graziosi]

Following this thread and the similar

   http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-apps/2011-05/msg00041.html

I want to flag that this:

/cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system32/runas.exe /user:pippo 'C:\cygwin-2\bin\bash 
--login -i'

works in a dos-like shell (Cygwin.bat) but not in mintty. Is there some 
trick to do the job also in mintty?

Thanks,
Angelo.

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