texlive-collection-basic requires Perl to be removed

texlive-collection-basic requires Perl to be removed

[Steven Penny]

This package contains this file:

    /etc/preremove/texlive-collection-basic.sh

which in turn calls:

    /usr/libexec/update_tlpdb

which is a Perl script. I understand that "texlive-collection-basic" requires
"perl_base", but if a user removed Perl first then uninstallation of texlive
would fail. Perhaps "update_tlpdb" could be rewritten as a shell script.


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Re: texlive-collection-basic requires Perl to be removed

[Ken Brown]

On 3/22/2018 10:10 PM, Steven Penny wrote:
> This package contains this file:
> 
>     /etc/preremove/texlive-collection-basic.sh
> 
> which in turn calls:
> 
>     /usr/libexec/update_tlpdb
> 
> which is a Perl script. I understand that "texlive-collection-basic" 
> requires
> "perl_base", but if a user removed Perl first then uninstallation of 
> texlive
> would fail. Perhaps "update_tlpdb" could be rewritten as a shell script.

Failure of a preremove script doesn't cause uninstallation to fail.

In any case, update_tlpdb is the tip of the iceberg.  The preremove 
script also calls (indirectly) the Perl scripts 
/usr/share/texmf-dist/scripts/texlive/updmap.pl and 
/usr/share/texmf-dist/scripts/texlive/fmtutil.pl.

Ken

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Re: texlive-collection-basic requires Perl to be removed

[Achim Gratz]

Steven Penny writes:
> which is a Perl script. I understand that "texlive-collection-basic" requires
> "perl_base", but if a user removed Perl first then uninstallation of texlive
> would fail. Perhaps "update_tlpdb" could be rewritten as a shell script.

The whole point of splitting off perl_base from perl was to eventually
make it available as a "Base" package so that it could be relied upon by
other parts of the system.  I don't remember why I didn't put it into
Base at the time, but maybe we should do that now?


Regards,
Achim.
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Re: texlive-collection-basic requires Perl to be removed

[Steven Penny]

On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 17:53:54, Achim Gratz wrote:
> The whole point of splitting off perl_base from perl was to eventually
> make it available as a "Base" package so that it could be relied upon by
> other parts of the system.  I don't remember why I didn't put it into
> Base at the time, but maybe we should do that now?

my knee-jerk reaction was to be against that, as I do not want to see "Base" get
too large. However it might be a good idea. I just tested every major Unix
distro, and some independent ones. These all come with Perl preinstalled:

- Linux Mint
- Debian
- Ubuntu
- Solus
- Fedora
- antiX
- Arch
- CentOS (based on Red Hat)
- PCLinuxOS (based on Mandriva)
- Puppy
- Lubuntu
- KDE neon
- Xubuntu
- Gentoo
- 4MLinux
- GeckoLinux (based on openSUSE)
- KaOS
- Tiny Core (based on Damn Small)
- NixOS

here are some major and independent distros that do not come with Perl
preinstalled:

- Slackware
- FreeBSD
- NuTyX (based on LFS)
- Alpine
- OpenBSD


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Re: texlive-collection-basic requires Perl to be removed

[Jordan Geoghegan]

Hi Steven,

OpenBSD does indeed come with perl, as its package managegment system, 
"pkg_add" is written pretty much entirely in perl. Perl is a first class 
citizens over at OpenBSD. I do believe it is also in the base system of 
FreeBSD as well.

Cheers,

Jordan Geoghegan


On 03/23/18 22:07, Steven Penny wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 17:53:54, Achim Gratz wrote:
>> The whole point of splitting off perl_base from perl was to eventually
>> make it available as a "Base" package so that it could be relied upon by
>> other parts of the system.  I don't remember why I didn't put it into
>> Base at the time, but maybe we should do that now?
>
> my knee-jerk reaction was to be against that, as I do not want to see 
> "Base" get
> too large. However it might be a good idea. I just tested every major 
> Unix
> distro, and some independent ones. These all come with Perl preinstalled:
>
> - Linux Mint
> - Debian
> - Ubuntu
> - Solus
> - Fedora
> - antiX
> - Arch
> - CentOS (based on Red Hat)
> - PCLinuxOS (based on Mandriva)
> - Puppy
> - Lubuntu
> - KDE neon
> - Xubuntu
> - Gentoo
> - 4MLinux
> - GeckoLinux (based on openSUSE)
> - KaOS
> - Tiny Core (based on Damn Small)
> - NixOS
>
> here are some major and independent distros that do not come with Perl
> preinstalled:
>
> - Slackware
> - FreeBSD
> - NuTyX (based on LFS)
> - Alpine
> - OpenBSD
>
>
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Re: texlive-collection-basic requires Perl to be removed

[Steven Penny]

On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 08:33:58, Jordan Geoghegan wrote:
> OpenBSD does indeed come with perl, as its package managegment system, 
> "pkg_add" is written pretty much entirely in perl. Perl is a first class 
> citizens over at OpenBSD.

Using this, no it doesnt:

http://fastly.cdn.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/6.2/amd64

> I do believe it is also in the base system of FreeBSD as well.

Using this, not it doesnt:

http://download.freebsd.org/ftp/releases/VM-IMAGES/11.1-RELEASE/amd64

Also see this:

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/2002-May/000823.html

Cheers


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Re: texlive-collection-basic requires Perl to be removed

[Jordan Geoghegan]

I am writing this from an OpenBSD machine. I can indeed confirm that 
Perl is in the base sytem. Those pages you reference don't show every 
program in the base system, they merely show the install file sets. You 
obviously have little experience with *BSD, please don't trumpet 
misinformation if you don't know what you're talking about.

Cheers,

Jordan Geoghegan


On 03/24/18 08:49, Steven Penny wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 08:33:58, Jordan Geoghegan wrote:
>> OpenBSD does indeed come with perl, as its package managegment 
>> system, "pkg_add" is written pretty much entirely in perl. Perl is a 
>> first class citizens over at OpenBSD.
>
> Using this, no it doesnt:
>
> http://fastly.cdn.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/6.2/amd64
>
>> I do believe it is also in the base system of FreeBSD as well.
>
> Using this, not it doesnt:
>
> http://download.freebsd.org/ftp/releases/VM-IMAGES/11.1-RELEASE/amd64
>
> Also see this:
>
> http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/2002-May/000823.html
>
> Cheers
>
>
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Re: texlive-collection-basic requires Perl to be removed

[Steven Penny]

On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 09:07:10, Jordan Geoghegan wrote:
> I am writing this from an OpenBSD machine. I can indeed confirm that 
> Perl is in the base sytem.

thanks for the email. however i think we may have a pot-kettle situation here,
so allow me to illuminate you. just because you are on an OpenBSD machine, and
you have Perl, doesnt mean that Perl is in the base system. You could have
installed OpenBSD long ago, which didnt have Perl in Base, then installed Perl
at some point, giving you the illusion that Perl is in the Base system. The only
way to know for sure, would be to do a clean OS install, or to load a live
version in a virtual machine, as I did. Since you didnt specify, I have to
assume you did neither.

> Those pages you reference don't show every program in the base system

Right.

> they merely show the install file sets.

Wrong. The FreeBSD page contains virtual hard disk files (.vhd), and the OpenBSD
page contains virtual optical disk files (.iso).

> You obviously have little experience with *BSD, please don't trumpet 
> misinformation if you don't know what you're talking about.

I would say the same to you. good day.


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Re: texlive-collection-basic requires Perl to be removed

[Jordan Geoghegan]

If you tested it in a VM, then you would have seen that Perl is in the 
base. I administer dozens of OpenBSD machines for $work. Are you 
seriously questioning my intelligence to that degree. or are you just 
that obstinate?

I will admit, that it looks as if you were correct in regards to FreeBSD 
(I haven't used it in production for years) this is why I said "I do 
believe it is also in the base system of FreeBSD" and did not present it 
as fact, I merely offered speculation vis a vis FreeBSD. Regardless,  
you are patently incorrect in regards to OpenBSD. I have done over 100 
installs/upgrades of OpenBSD in the past several months and can confirm, 
that every time I have installed OpenBSD, Perl has been in the base system.

How do I know this? I run some custom in house Perl programs/scripts 
that I wrote myself and deploy them on nearly every machine I run. The 
Perl scripts run from a default install and they do not invoke pkg_add 
as I am a zealot who likes to run only the base system where possible.

I don't understand why you are refuting my statement so vehemently... 
this is easy to fact check. Go spin up an OBSD VM and try running a 
basic perl script on a text file. You will see it works.

Also, by install file sets, I also meant install media, don't be 
pedantic. Go do some research/testing before you reply again.

Thanks for the "illumination",

Jordan Geoghegan


On 03/24/18 11:17, Steven Penny wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 09:07:10, Jordan Geoghegan wrote:
>> I am writing this from an OpenBSD machine. I can indeed confirm that 
>> Perl is in the base sytem.
>
> thanks for the email. however i think we may have a pot-kettle 
> situation here,
> so allow me to illuminate you. just because you are on an OpenBSD 
> machine, and
> you have Perl, doesnt mean that Perl is in the base system. You could 
> have
> installed OpenBSD long ago, which didnt have Perl in Base, then 
> installed Perl
> at some point, giving you the illusion that Perl is in the Base 
> system. The only
> way to know for sure, would be to do a clean OS install, or to load a 
> live
> version in a virtual machine, as I did. Since you didnt specify, I 
> have to
> assume you did neither.
>
>> Those pages you reference don't show every program in the base system
>
> Right.
>
>> they merely show the install file sets.
>
> Wrong. The FreeBSD page contains virtual hard disk files (.vhd), and 
> the OpenBSD
> page contains virtual optical disk files (.iso).
>
>> You obviously have little experience with *BSD, please don't trumpet 
>> misinformation if you don't know what you're talking about.
>
> I would say the same to you. good day.
>
>
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Re: texlive-collection-basic requires Perl to be removed

[Steven Penny]

On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 11:43:42, Jordan Geoghegan wrote:
> If you tested it in a VM, then you would have seen that Perl is in the 
> base.

Using this file:

http://fastly.cdn.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/6.2/amd64/install62.iso

If you extract one of the files will be:

    6.2/amd64/base62.tgz

then if you extract that file, one of the files will be:

    usr/bin/perl

so yes, you are right. the trouble is that Perl is not available in the "live"
environment. When you first load, you get this:

    Welcome to the OpenBSD/amd64 6.2 installation program.
    (I)nstall, (U)pgrade, (A)utoinstall or (S)hell? s
    # type perl
    perl not found

alternatively, if you do run the installer, then "Remove disk from virtual
drive, then "reboot", it does work:

    # type perl
    perl is /usr/bin/perl

So only the "installed" environment has Perl.


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Re: texlive-collection-basic requires Perl to be removed

[Jordan Geoghegan]

Yes, of course, I didn't realize the installer environment was the only 
thing you evaluated.

bsd.rd install kernel is not meant for troubleshooting/testing or 
administrative use. It _is_not_ a "live cd" or live environment meant 
for doing anything other than installing the system.

Thanks for bants, this has been fun.

Cheers,

Jordan Geoghegan


On 03/24/18 12:13, Steven Penny wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 11:43:42, Jordan Geoghegan wrote:
>> If you tested it in a VM, then you would have seen that Perl is in 
>> the base.
>
> Using this file:
>
> http://fastly.cdn.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/6.2/amd64/install62.iso
>
> If you extract one of the files will be:
>
>    6.2/amd64/base62.tgz
>
> then if you extract that file, one of the files will be:
>
>    usr/bin/perl
>
> so yes, you are right. the trouble is that Perl is not available in 
> the "live"
> environment. When you first load, you get this:
>
>    Welcome to the OpenBSD/amd64 6.2 installation program.
>    (I)nstall, (U)pgrade, (A)utoinstall or (S)hell? s
>    # type perl
>    perl not found
>
> alternatively, if you do run the installer, then "Remove disk from 
> virtual
> drive, then "reboot", it does work:
>
>    # type perl
>    perl is /usr/bin/perl
>
> So only the "installed" environment has Perl.
>
>
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