Installer names not meaningful enough

Installer names not meaningful enough

[Roberto Ríos Gallardo]

Please give the installers more meaningful names. In particular, make
sure "cygwin" is part of it. "setup-x86_64.exe" is not very obvious. A
version number would be nice too.

-- 
Delay not, Caesar. Read it instantly.
-- Shakespeare, "Julius Caesar" 3,1

Here is a letter, read it at your leisure.
-- Shakespeare, "Merchant of Venice" 5,1

[Quoted in "VMS Internals and Data Structures", V4.4, when
referring to I/O system services.]

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Lee Dilkie]

On 12/1/2016 5:51 AM, Roberto Ríos Gallardo wrote:
> Please give the installers more meaningful names. In particular, make
> sure "cygwin" is part of it. "setup-x86_64.exe" is not very obvious. A
> version number would be nice too.
>

I'd agree that adding "cygwin" to the setup program would be nice but it's certainly not the windows "way", lots of programs use just "setup.exe".

Versioning can't be added to the file name because the setup program itself isn't versioned, or at least isn't the same version as the cygwin you are installing... the cygwin version come from the servers...

-lee

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Eliot Moss]

On 12/1/2016 7:18 AM, Lee Dilkie wrote:
 >
 >
 > On 12/1/2016 5:51 AM, Roberto Ríos Gallardo wrote:
 >> Please give the installers more meaningful names. In particular, make
 >> sure "cygwin" is part of it. "setup-x86_64.exe" is not very obvious. A
 >> version number would be nice too.
 >>
 >
 > I'd agree that adding "cygwin" to the setup program would be nice but it's certainly not the windows
 > "way", lots of programs use just "setup.exe".
 >
 > Versioning can't be added to the file name because the setup program itself isn't versioned, or at
 > least isn't the same version as the cygwin you are installing... the cygwin version come from the
 > servers...

I think that including the version of the setup program could be helpful - I tend
to add it (renaming the file by hand).  However, clearly we've lived with things this
way for a long time ...

Eliot Moss

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Vlado]

On 1.12.2016 13:51, Eliot Moss wrote:
> I think that including the version of the setup program could be helpful
> - I tend
> to add it (renaming the file by hand).  However, clearly we've lived
> with things this
> way for a long time ...

I disagree.
I have a script to update Cygwin. This script checks for new version of 
setup, downloads, verifies signature, etc. Things would become much more 
complicated with variable setup file name.
Finally: Why should I care about the exact version number of setup? 
Script makes backups of the old setup files like setup.exe.0001, 0002, 
..., just for a cause, but never in the past I did have to looking for 
the setup with exact version number.

Vlado


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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[cyg Simple]

On 12/1/2016 8:25 AM, Vlado wrote:
> On 1.12.2016 13:51, Eliot Moss wrote:
>> I think that including the version of the setup program could be helpful
>> - I tend
>> to add it (renaming the file by hand).  However, clearly we've lived
>> with things this
>> way for a long time ...

More than a score years.

> 
> I disagree.
> I have a script to update Cygwin. This script checks for new version of
> setup, downloads, verifies signature, etc. Things would become much more
> complicated with variable setup file name.
> Finally: Why should I care about the exact version number of setup?
> Script makes backups of the old setup files like setup.exe.0001, 0002,
> ..., just for a cause, but never in the past I did have to looking for
> the setup with exact version number.
> 

The only reason would be if you had an older version of the .ini file.
When the data prerequisites of the .ini file change there is a new
version of setup to handle that.

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cyg Simple

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RE: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]]

Lee Dilkie sent the following at Thursday, December 01, 2016 7:19 AM
>On 12/1/2016 5:51 AM, Roberto Ríos Gallardo wrote:
>> Please give the installers more meaningful names.  In particular, make
>> sure "cygwin" is part of it.  "setup-x86_64.exe" is not very obvious.
>> A version number would be nice too.
>
>I'd agree that adding "cygwin" to the setup program would be nice
>but it's certainly not the windows "way", lots of programs use just
>"setup.exe".

I've nominated "getcygwin" => getcygwin64.exe or getcygwin32.exe
https://sourceware.org/ml/cygwin/2013-09/msg00316.html

- Barry
  Disclaimer: Statements made herein are not made on behalf of NIAID.

Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Ian Lambert]

On December 1, 2016 8:54:57 AM EST, cyg Simple <cygsimple@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>On 12/1/2016 8:25 AM, Vlado wrote:
>> On 1.12.2016 13:51, Eliot Moss wrote:
>>> I think that including the version of the setup program could be
>helpful
>>> - I tend
>>> to add it (renaming the file by hand).  However, clearly we've lived
>>> with things this
>>> way for a long time ...
>
>More than a score years.
>
>> 
>> I disagree.
>> I have a script to update Cygwin. This script checks for new version
>of
>> setup, downloads, verifies signature, etc. Things would become much
>more
>> complicated with variable setup file name.
>> Finally: Why should I care about the exact version number of setup?
>> Script makes backups of the old setup files like setup.exe.0001,
>0002,
>> ..., just for a cause, but never in the past I did have to looking
>for
>> the setup with exact version number.
>> 
>
>The only reason would be if you had an older version of the .ini file.
>When the data prerequisites of the .ini file change there is a new
>version of setup to handle that.


Another reason to rename from setup to something else is if your PC "protection" won't let you run something named setup, but will run other names. A friend has this issue, and uses a script to download and rename new setups, when "non-setup" says a newer one is available, based on timestamp and version in setup.ini (?).

So, I'd like it to have a different, constant name too, but no biggie as is.



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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Stephen Paul Carrier]

On Thu, Dec 01, 2016 at 11:37:41AM -0500, Ian Lambert wrote:
> On December 1, 2016 8:54:57 AM EST, cyg Simple <cygsimple@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >On 12/1/2016 8:25 AM, Vlado wrote:
> >> On 1.12.2016 13:51, Eliot Moss wrote:
> >>> I think that including the version of the setup program could be
> >helpful
> >>> - I tend
> >>> to add it (renaming the file by hand).  However, clearly we've lived
> >>> with things this
> >>> way for a long time ...
> >
> >More than a score years.
> >
> >> 
> >> I disagree.
> >> I have a script to update Cygwin. This script checks for new version
> >of
> >> setup, downloads, verifies signature, etc. Things would become much
> >more
> >> complicated with variable setup file name.
> >> Finally: Why should I care about the exact version number of setup?
> >> Script makes backups of the old setup files like setup.exe.0001,
> >0002,
> >> ..., just for a cause, but never in the past I did have to looking
> >for
> >> the setup with exact version number.
> >> 
> >
> >The only reason would be if you had an older version of the .ini file.
> >When the data prerequisites of the .ini file change there is a new
> >version of setup to handle that.

Right, and the way to learn if this is the case is to run setup.  I learn
that a new version is available by running the old version.

Running setup is also the way to find out what is the version.

I don't mind renaming the file myself, but would really appreciate any
way to know from the cygwin.com front page exactly which version of the
setup-*.exe is on offer.  (The current version of Cygwin DLL is useful,
but not the same thing.)

Stephen Carrier

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Stephen Paul Carrier!

> I don't mind renaming the file myself, but would really appreciate any
> way to know from the cygwin.com front page exactly which version of the
> setup-*.exe is on offer.  (The current version of Cygwin DLL is useful,
> but not the same thing.)

That may (will!) confuse people not familiar with insides of Cygwin
environment.


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With best regards,
Andrey Repin
Monday, December 5, 2016 21:25:04

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Eliot Moss]

On 12/5/2016 1:25 PM, Andrey Repin wrote:
> Greetings, Stephen Paul Carrier!
>
>> I don't mind renaming the file myself, but would really appreciate any
>> way to know from the cygwin.com front page exactly which version of the
>> setup-*.exe is on offer.  (The current version of Cygwin DLL is useful,
>> but not the same thing.)
>
> That may (will!) confuse people not familiar with insides of Cygwin
> environment.

Possibly, but it doesn't strike me as overly difficult to explain
that these are different version sequences.  We also might be able
to make the two numbering schemes look sufficiently different that
they would be harder to confuse ...

Regards - Eliot Moss

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Brian Inglis]

On 2016-12-05 10:36, Stephen Paul Carrier wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 01, 2016 at 11:37:41AM -0500, Ian Lambert wrote:
>> On December 1, 2016 8:54:57 AM EST, cyg Simple <cygsimple@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/1/2016 8:25 AM, Vlado wrote:
>>>> On 1.12.2016 13:51, Eliot Moss wrote:
>>>>> I think that including the version of the setup program could be
>>> helpful
>>>>> - I tend
>>>>> to add it (renaming the file by hand).  However, clearly we've lived
>>>>> with things this
>>>>> way for a long time ...
>>>
>>> More than a score years.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I disagree.
>>>> I have a script to update Cygwin. This script checks for new version
>>> of
>>>> setup, downloads, verifies signature, etc. Things would become much
>>> more
>>>> complicated with variable setup file name.
>>>> Finally: Why should I care about the exact version number of setup?
>>>> Script makes backups of the old setup files like setup.exe.0001,
>>> 0002,
>>>> ..., just for a cause, but never in the past I did have to looking
>>> for
>>>> the setup with exact version number.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The only reason would be if you had an older version of the .ini file.
>>> When the data prerequisites of the .ini file change there is a new
>>> version of setup to handle that.
> 
> Right, and the way to learn if this is the case is to run setup.  I learn
> that a new version is available by running the old version.
> 
> Running setup is also the way to find out what is the version.
> 
> I don't mind renaming the file myself, but would really appreciate any
> way to know from the cygwin.com front page exactly which version of the
> setup-*.exe is on offer.  (The current version of Cygwin DLL is useful,
> but not the same thing.)

You can get the Setup version by installing upx and running: 

cp -fp $DIR/setup-x86*.exe /tmp/setup	&& \
upx -dqqq /tmp/setup			&& \
egrep -ao '%%%\ssetup-version\s[.0-9]+' /tmp/setup | \
	sed 's/%%%\ssetup-version\s//'	&& \
rm -f /tmp/setup

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Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Gerrit Haase]

2016-12-01 11:51 GMT+01:00 Roberto Ríos Gallardo says:
> Please give the installers more meaningful names. In particular, make
> sure "cygwin" is part of it. "setup-x86_64.exe" is not very obvious. A
> version number would be nice too.

The version is part of setup.ini in the header:

# This file was automatically generated at 2016-12-05 09:43:16 UTC.
#
# If you edit it, your edits will be discarded next time the file is
# generated.  See http://cygwin.com/setup.html for details.
release: cygwin
arch: x86_64
setup-timestamp: 1480930996
setup-version: 2.876
...


Regards,
Gerrit

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Duncan Roe]

On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 10:11:42AM +0100, Gerrit Haase wrote:
> 2016-12-01 11:51 GMT+01:00 Roberto Ríos Gallardo says:
> > Please give the installers more meaningful names. In particular, make
> > sure "cygwin" is part of it. "setup-x86_64.exe" is not very obvious. A
> > version number would be nice too.
>
> The version is part of setup.ini in the header:
>
> # This file was automatically generated at 2016-12-05 09:43:16 UTC.
> #
> # If you edit it, your edits will be discarded next time the file is
> # generated.  See http://cygwin.com/setup.html for details.
> release: cygwin
> arch: x86_64
> setup-timestamp: 1480930996
> setup-version: 2.876
> ...
>
>
> Regards,
> Gerrit

Where is setup.ini?

Cheers ... Duncan.

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Ian Lambert]

On December 7, 2016 4:57:02 AM EST, Duncan Roe <duncan_roe@acslink.net.au> wrote:
>On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 10:11:42AM +0100, Gerrit Haase wrote:
>> 2016-12-01 11:51 GMT+01:00 Roberto Ríos Gallardo says:
>> > Please give the installers more meaningful names. In particular,
>make
>> > sure "cygwin" is part of it. "setup-x86_64.exe" is not very
>obvious. A
>> > version number would be nice too.
>>
>> The version is part of setup.ini in the header:
>>
>> # This file was automatically generated at 2016-12-05 09:43:16 UTC.
>> #
>> # If you edit it, your edits will be discarded next time the file is
>> # generated.  See http://cygwin.com/setup.html for details.
>> release: cygwin
>> arch: x86_64
>> setup-timestamp: 1480930996
>> setup-version: 2.876
>> ...
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Gerrit
>
>Where is setup.ini?
>

$ locate setup.ini

/cygwin-install/path/ftp.some.mirror/x86_64/setup.ini

Cheers


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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Brian Inglis]

On 2016-12-07 07:46, Ian Lambert wrote:
> On December 7, 2016 4:57:02 AM EST, Duncan Roe wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 10:11:42AM +0100, Gerrit Haase wrote:
>>> 2016-12-01 11:51 GMT+01:00 Roberto Ríos Gallardo says:
>>>> Please give the installers more meaningful names. In
>>>> particular, make sure "cygwin" is part of it.
>>>> "setup-x86_64.exe" is not very obvious. A version number would
>>>> be nice too.
>>> The version is part of setup.ini in the header:
>>> # This file was automatically generated at 2016-12-05 09:43:16 UTC.
>>> #
>>> # If you edit it, your edits will be discarded next time the file is
>>> # generated.  See http://cygwin.com/setup.html for details.
>>> release: cygwin
>>> arch: x86_64
>>> setup-timestamp: 1480930996
>>> setup-version: 2.876
>>> ...
>> Where is setup.ini?
> $ locate setup.ini
> /cygwin-install/path/ftp.some.mirror/x86_64/setup.ini

More generally, without locate installed or updated, 
you can find it quickly with: 

$ grep -A1 '^last-cache$' /etc/setup/setup.rc
last-cache
        C:/cygwin-package-cache

at: 

$ ls $(cygpath $(sed '0,/^last-cache$/d;q' /etc/setup/setup.rc))/?*tp%3a%2f%2f*cygwin*%2f/x86*/setup.ini

giving: 

$ grep '^setup-version:\s' $(cygpath $(sed '0,/^last-cache$/d;q' /etc/setup/setup.rc))/?*tp%3a%2f%2f*cygwin*%2f/x86*/setup.ini
setup-version: 2.876

or: 

$ sed '/^setup-version:\s/!d;s///' $(cygpath $(sed '0,/^last-cache$/d;q' /etc/setup/setup.rc))/?*tp%3a%2f%2f*cygwin*%2f/x86*/setup.ini
2.876

Unwrap commands if required to copy and paste.

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Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Erik Soderquist]

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 7:18 AM, Lee Dilkie wrote:
> I'd agree that adding "cygwin" to the setup program would be nice but it's
> certainly not the windows "way", lots of programs use just "setup.exe".

I don't recall "the Windows way" being a goal of Cygwin.

> Versioning can't be added to the file name because the setup program itself
> isn't versioned, or at least isn't the same version as the cygwin you are
> installing... the cygwin version come from the servers...

Yes, the setup program is versioned, and will complain about being
outdated on its own anytime it sees a setup.ini that reports a newer
version of the setup program exists.

I've often wondered why the setup program doesn't include its version
number in the name like ever other package does, for example:
openssh-7.3p1-2.tar.xz

On my own systems, I download the setup program and check its version,
then rename the file myself to include the version number.  I know I
would greatly appreciate the setup version number in the file name,
and suspect this could be accomplished without breaking the existing
scripted downloads by having setup.exe and setup_x64.exe be symlinks
to whatever the current version is.  Having the version number of the
setup program thus available could also prevent a lot of duplicate
downloads.  I know I would look at the version number before
downloading rather than download and then compare to what I have.

-- Erik

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Brian Inglis]

On 2016-12-07 14:40, Erik Soderquist wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 7:18 AM, Lee Dilkie wrote:
>> I'd agree that adding "cygwin" to the setup program would be nice
>> but it's certainly not the windows "way", lots of programs use just
>> "setup.exe".
> 
> I don't recall "the Windows way" being a goal of Cygwin.
> 
>> Versioning can't be added to the file name because the setup
>> program itself isn't versioned, or at least isn't the same version
>> as the cygwin you are installing... the cygwin version come from
>> the servers...
> 
> Yes, the setup program is versioned, and will complain about being 
> outdated on its own anytime it sees a setup.ini that reports a newer 
> version of the setup program exists.
> 
> I've often wondered why the setup program doesn't include its
> version number in the name like ever other package does, for
> example: openssh-7.3p1-2.tar.xz
> 
> On my own systems, I download the setup program and check its
> version, then rename the file myself to include the version number. I
> know I would greatly appreciate the setup version number in the file
> name, and suspect this could be accomplished without breaking the
> existing scripted downloads by having setup.exe and setup_x64.exe be
> symlinks to whatever the current version is. Having the version
> number of the setup program thus available could also prevent a lot
> of duplicate downloads. I know I would look at the version number
> before downloading rather than download and then compare to what I
> have.

Use wget -N to prevent duplicate downloads when the name, date, 
and size don't change.

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Erik Soderquist]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Brian Inglis wrote:

> Use wget -N to prevent duplicate downloads when the name, date,
> and size don't change.

That only works if I am downloading to the same location/name as the source is

-- Erik

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Brian Inglis]

On 2016-12-07 15:06, Erik Soderquist wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Brian Inglis wrote:
> 
>> Use wget -N to prevent duplicate downloads when the name, date, and
>> size don't change.
> 
> That only works if I am downloading to the same location/name as the
> source is

You can use e.g. wget -N -P /var/cache/ with URIs for multiple individual 
files and their detached .sigs: e.g. some of setup_x86{,_64}.exe{,.sig}
setup.ini{,.xz,bz2}{,.sig}, then after gpg --verify, cp -pu to where 
you want to use or store them, appending a release number if you want, 
as described in earlier posts.

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Vlado]

On 7.12.2016 23:06, Erik Soderquist wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Brian Inglis wrote:
>
>> Use wget -N to prevent duplicate downloads when the name, date,
>> and size don't change.
> That only works if I am downloading to the same location/name as the source is
>
> -- Erik

Erik (and others),

don't worry about Setup version, please.

Use this script: 
https://gist.github.com/Vlado-99/1d59bf05b70481377ff90bb53e13bb2d

it makes things much easier:

- Setup is downloaded only if gpg signature changes (only very small 
.sig file is re-downloaded every time)

- gpg signature of Setup is validated (no need to do it manually)

- services I use, are stopped and restarted automatically (no need to 
restart Windows after update; add Yours services to script if needed)

Vlado


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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Erik Soderquist]

On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 6:28 AM, Vlado <v.99cygwin@gmail.com> wrote:
> Erik (and others),
>
> don't worry about Setup version, please.
>
> Use this script:
> https://gist.github.com/Vlado-99/1d59bf05b70481377ff90bb53e13bb2d
>
> - Setup is downloaded only if gpg signature changes (only very small .sig
> file is re-downloaded every time)


While work arounds are great and appreciated, they still don't address
the original question of why the version of the setup executable isn't
part of the filename like it is in most of the *nix packages and
installers (or at least most of the ones I have been exposed to).

-- Erik

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[cyg Simple]

On 12/14/2016 4:17 PM, Erik Soderquist wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 6:28 AM, Vlado <v.99cygwin@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Erik (and others),
>>
>> don't worry about Setup version, please.
>>
>> Use this script:
>> https://gist.github.com/Vlado-99/1d59bf05b70481377ff90bb53e13bb2d
>>
>> - Setup is downloaded only if gpg signature changes (only very small .sig
>> file is re-downloaded every time)
> 
> 
> While work arounds are great and appreciated, they still don't address
> the original question of why the version of the setup executable isn't
> part of the filename like it is in most of the *nix packages and
> installers (or at least most of the ones I have been exposed to).
> 

And if we were purely *nix your argument might hold merit but this setup
executable provides a Windows OS based install of a Windows based
application set known as Cygwin.

The name of the executable has never been a problem; why are you trying
to create one?  There are just as many that would keep it simple and
leave the name as is.

-- 
cyg Simple

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[Erik Soderquist]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 4:50 PM, cyg Simple <cygsimple@gmail.com> wrote:
> And if we were purely *nix your argument might hold merit but this setup
> executable provides a Windows OS based install of a Windows based
> application set known as Cygwin.

If we were purely *nix, we wouldn't be on Windows in the first place.

> The name of the executable has never been a problem; why are you trying
> to create one?  There are just as many that would keep it simple and
> leave the name as is.

I don't recall anyone trying to create a problem so much as find out
the reasoning behind the decision and ask for the setup executable
version information to be more accessible than it currently is.  At
present, it does not appear that the cygwin pages list the current
setup executable version at all, forcing either an aborted setup run
when the setup executable itself reports that the setup.ini file
indicates the currently running executable is outdated, or downloading
*something* to see if the version of setup available for download has
changed.

-- Erik

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Re: Installer names not meaningful enough

[cyg Simple]

On 12/14/2016 4:58 PM, Erik Soderquist wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 4:50 PM, cyg Simple <cygsimple@gmail.com> wrote:
>> And if we were purely *nix your argument might hold merit but this setup
>> executable provides a Windows OS based install of a Windows based
>> application set known as Cygwin.
> 
> If we were purely *nix, we wouldn't be on Windows in the first place.
> 
>> The name of the executable has never been a problem; why are you trying
>> to create one?  There are just as many that would keep it simple and
>> leave the name as is.
> 
> I don't recall anyone trying to create a problem so much as find out
> the reasoning behind the decision and ask for the setup executable
> version information to be more accessible than it currently is.  At
> present, it does not appear that the cygwin pages list the current
> setup executable version at all, forcing either an aborted setup run
> when the setup executable itself reports that the setup.ini file
> indicates the currently running executable is outdated, or downloading
> *something* to see if the version of setup available for download has
> changed.

If you that concerned about it you can check the repository tags at
https://cygwin.com/git/gitweb.cgi?p=cygwin-apps/setup.git;a=tags to find
the current released version.

-- 
cyg Simple

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