[HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Corinna Vinschen]

Hi folks,


The upcoming version 3.3.0 is the last version officially supporting
Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008.

The next major release 3.4.0 will be released in 2022 and will be the
last one officially supporting Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows Server 2008
R2, and Windows Server 2012.

We're also planning to drop Support for the 32 bit release of Cygwin in
2022, thus Cygwin 3.4.0 won't come in 32 bit anymore, and the package
maintainers won't have to update 32 bit packages anymore.  If you're
still running Cygwin under WOW64, consider to move to 64 bit in the next
couple of months.


Corinna

Re: [QUAR] [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Eliot Moss]

Thank you for your many efforts, Corinna!

This seems very reasonable to me!

Best wishes - Eliot Moss

RE: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Michel LaBarre]

Corinna , thank you for the heads up regarding subsequent updates wrt Window
7.

Would it be possible to create a short "how-to" for installing the most
recently "known-to-work-with-Windows-7" version of Cygwin (presuming that
old versions remain accessible indefinitely...).  Alternately, how one can
download a repository now that is compatible with Windows 7 and useable for
installing Cygwin in anticipation of the upcoming loss of support.

I have old machines that cannot be updated to Windows 10 (hybrid graphics
hardware) that I use for background activities that I may someday need to
rebuild.

Thank you very much for all your efforts.

Michel

-----Original Message-----
From: Cygwin [mailto:cygwin-bounces+michel.labarre=rogers.com@cygwin.com] On
Behalf Of Corinna Vinschen via Cygwin
Sent: October 26, 2021 4:55 PM
To: cygwin@cygwin.com
Cc: Corinna Vinschen
Subject: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

Hi folks,


The upcoming version 3.3.0 is the last version officially supporting
Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008.

The next major release 3.4.0 will be released in 2022 and will be the
last one officially supporting Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows Server 2008
R2, and Windows Server 2012.

We're also planning to drop Support for the 32 bit release of Cygwin in
2022, thus Cygwin 3.4.0 won't come in 32 bit anymore, and the package
maintainers won't have to update 32 bit packages anymore.  If you're
still running Cygwin under WOW64, consider to move to 64 bit in the next
couple of months.


Corinna

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Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Peter A. Castro]

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 06:52:02PM -0400, Michel LaBarre wrote:

Greetings, Michel & Corinna,

> Corinna , thank you for the heads up regarding subsequent updates wrt Window
> 7.
> 
> Would it be possible to create a short "how-to" for installing the most
> recently "known-to-work-with-Windows-7" version of Cygwin (presuming that
> old versions remain accessible indefinitely...).  Alternately, how one can
> download a repository now that is compatible with Windows 7 and useable for
> installing Cygwin in anticipation of the upcoming loss of support.

As these milestones occur I will make notes in the Cygwin Time Machine
concerning the ending release snapshot and installers, like what I have
for the last XP release.

Corinna, I presume you will post when these milestones occur so that we
have a more exact message in the Cygwin mail archive?

> I have old machines that cannot be updated to Windows 10 (hybrid graphics
> hardware) that I use for background activities that I may someday need to
> rebuild.
>
> Thank you very much for all your efforts.
> 
> Michel
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cygwin [mailto:cygwin-bounces+michel.labarre=rogers.com@cygwin.com] On
> Behalf Of Corinna Vinschen via Cygwin
> Sent: October 26, 2021 4:55 PM
> To: cygwin@cygwin.com
> Cc: Corinna Vinschen
> Subject: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> 
> The upcoming version 3.3.0 is the last version officially supporting
> Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008.
> 
> The next major release 3.4.0 will be released in 2022 and will be the
> last one officially supporting Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows Server 2008
> R2, and Windows Server 2012.
> 
> We're also planning to drop Support for the 32 bit release of Cygwin in
> 2022, thus Cygwin 3.4.0 won't come in 32 bit anymore, and the package
> maintainers won't have to update 32 bit packages anymore.  If you're
> still running Cygwin under WOW64, consider to move to 64 bit in the next
> couple of months.
> 
> 
> Corinna
> 
> -- 
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> 
> 
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Email: doctor at fruitbat dot org / Peter dot Castro at oracle dot com
	"Cats are just autistic Dogs" -- Dr. Tony Attwood

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Oct 26 21:29, Peter A. Castro wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 06:52:02PM -0400, Michel LaBarre wrote:
> 
> Greetings, Michel & Corinna,
> 
> > Corinna , thank you for the heads up regarding subsequent updates wrt Window
> > 7.
> > 
> > Would it be possible to create a short "how-to" for installing the most
> > recently "known-to-work-with-Windows-7" version of Cygwin (presuming that
> > old versions remain accessible indefinitely...).  Alternately, how one can
> > download a repository now that is compatible with Windows 7 and useable for
> > installing Cygwin in anticipation of the upcoming loss of support.
> 
> As these milestones occur I will make notes in the Cygwin Time Machine
> concerning the ending release snapshot and installers, like what I have
> for the last XP release.
> 
> Corinna, I presume you will post when these milestones occur so that we
> have a more exact message in the Cygwin mail archive?

In which way do you mean?  My planning was this:

When I release 3.3.0 (next couple of days), I will add a note to the
announcement that this is the last major release supporting Vista and
Server 2008.

When I release 3.4.0 (in some nebular future of 2022), I will add a
note to the announcement that this version does not support Vista and
2008 anymore, and that 3.4.0 is the last version supporting
W7, 8, 2008R2, 2012.

That ok?  Or do you think of somehting else?

Oh, that reminds me... I should have sent the headsup to cygwin-announce,
not to the cygwin ML.  I will fix this omission immediately...


Thanks,
Corinna

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Peter A. Castro]

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 10:53:58AM +0200, Cygwin List wrote:

Greetings, Corinna,

> On Oct 26 21:29, Peter A. Castro wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 06:52:02PM -0400, Michel LaBarre wrote:
> > 
> > Greetings, Michel & Corinna,
> > 
> > > Corinna , thank you for the heads up regarding subsequent updates wrt Window
> > > 7.
> > > 
> > > Would it be possible to create a short "how-to" for installing the most
> > > recently "known-to-work-with-Windows-7" version of Cygwin (presuming that
> > > old versions remain accessible indefinitely...).  Alternately, how one can
> > > download a repository now that is compatible with Windows 7 and useable for
> > > installing Cygwin in anticipation of the upcoming loss of support.
> > 
> > As these milestones occur I will make notes in the Cygwin Time Machine
> > concerning the ending release snapshot and installers, like what I have
> > for the last XP release.
> > 
> > Corinna, I presume you will post when these milestones occur so that we
> > have a more exact message in the Cygwin mail archive?
> 
> In which way do you mean?  My planning was this:
> 
> When I release 3.3.0 (next couple of days), I will add a note to the
> announcement that this is the last major release supporting Vista and
> Server 2008.
> 
> When I release 3.4.0 (in some nebular future of 2022), I will add a
> note to the announcement that this version does not support Vista and
> 2008 anymore, and that 3.4.0 is the last version supporting
> W7, 8, 2008R2, 2012.
> 
> That ok?  Or do you think of somehting else?

That works.  I'll note the email message for those announcements, like
I've done for the XP finale, and provide direct circa links and a copy
of the installer.

> Oh, that reminds me... I should have sent the headsup to cygwin-announce,
> not to the cygwin ML.  I will fix this omission immediately...
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Corinna
> 
> -- 
> Problem reports:      https://cygwin.com/problems.html
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-- 
--=> Peter A. Castro
Email: doctor at fruitbat dot org / Peter dot Castro at oracle dot com
	"Cats are just autistic Dogs" -- Dr. Tony Attwood

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Oct 27 09:28, Peter A. Castro wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 10:53:58AM +0200, Cygwin List wrote:
> Greetings, Corinna,
> 
> > On Oct 26 21:29, Peter A. Castro wrote:
> > > Corinna, I presume you will post when these milestones occur so that we
> > > have a more exact message in the Cygwin mail archive?
> > 
> > In which way do you mean?  My planning was this:
> > 
> > When I release 3.3.0 (next couple of days), I will add a note to the
> > announcement that this is the last major release supporting Vista and
> > Server 2008.
> > 
> > When I release 3.4.0 (in some nebular future of 2022), I will add a
> > note to the announcement that this version does not support Vista and
> > 2008 anymore, and that 3.4.0 is the last version supporting
> > W7, 8, 2008R2, 2012.
> > 
> > That ok?  Or do you think of somehting else?
> 
> That works.  I'll note the email message for those announcements, like
> I've done for the XP finale, and provide direct circa links and a copy
> of the installer.

Great, thanks!


Corinna

RE: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Michel LaBarre]

> > Would it be possible to create a short "how-to" for installing the most
> > recently "known-to-work-with-Windows-7" version of Cygwin (presuming
that
> > old versions remain accessible indefinitely...).  Alternately, how one
can
> > download a repository now that is compatible with Windows 7 and useable
for
> > installing Cygwin in anticipation of the upcoming loss of support.
> 
> As these milestones occur I will make notes in the Cygwin Time Machine
> concerning the ending release snapshot and installers, like what I have

> for the last XP release.
[Michel LaBarre] 

Peter, thanks for reminding me of the Time Machine.  I had heard of it but
never had occasion to use it.

If I understand the "dead simple instructions" correctly, to install the
latest XP-compatible 64-bit Cygwin for example, I would run (on an XP
system):

  setup-x86_64-2.874.exe
http://ctm.crouchingtigerhiddenfruitbat.org/pub/cygwin/circa/64bit/2016/08/3
0/104235 -X

and all the correct packages would be presented in the setup GUI and fetched
from your archive.

And I could re-run the same command to install additional packages.

If that is the correct, perhaps in the case of iconic last-versions
(XP,Win7,...), you might explicitly list "deader simpler instructions" with
the actual setup invocations referring to the correct archives. 

(Thanks in advance - the time machine is huge service.)


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Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Peter A. Castro]

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 10:57:00AM -0400, Michel LaBarre wrote:

Greetings, Michel,

> > > Would it be possible to create a short "how-to" for installing the most
> > > recently "known-to-work-with-Windows-7" version of Cygwin (presuming
> that
> > > old versions remain accessible indefinitely...).  Alternately, how one
> can
> > > download a repository now that is compatible with Windows 7 and useable
> for
> > > installing Cygwin in anticipation of the upcoming loss of support.
> > 
> > As these milestones occur I will make notes in the Cygwin Time Machine
> > concerning the ending release snapshot and installers, like what I have
> 
> > for the last XP release.
> [Michel LaBarre] 
> 
> Peter, thanks for reminding me of the Time Machine.  I had heard of it but
> never had occasion to use it.
>
> If I understand the "dead simple instructions" correctly, to install the
> latest XP-compatible 64-bit Cygwin for example, I would run (on an XP
> system):
> 
>   setup-x86_64-2.874.exe
> http://ctm.crouchingtigerhiddenfruitbat.org/pub/cygwin/circa/64bit/2016/08/3
> 0/104235 -X
> 
> and all the correct packages would be presented in the setup GUI and fetched
> from your archive.

That is correct.

> And I could re-run the same command to install additional packages.

That is also correct.
If you have any issues, please contact me (the Time Machine page lists
my contact at the bottom).  I'm usually pretty responsive.

I will note that doing an install of *everything* isn't exactly a good
idea, because there are packages that overlap and conflict somewhat.  I
usually advice people to install just what they need rather than the
entire enchilada.  You can always install more later.

> If that is the correct, perhaps in the case of iconic last-versions
> (XP,Win7,...), you might explicitly list "deader simpler instructions" with
> the actual setup invocations referring to the correct archives. 

The DSI are pretty generic, I agree, but armed with the update of the
URLs to use and the installer link, I'm not sure an additional
clarification is really necessary.  But, give it a try and if you feel
something more clear is really needed, I'll see about adding some
verbage.

> (Thanks in advance - the time machine is huge service.)

Hopefully it is of use to people.  :)

> > Problem reports:      https://cygwin.com/problems.html
> > FAQ:                  https://cygwin.com/faq/
> > Documentation:        https://cygwin.com/docs.html
> > Unsubscribe info:     https://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple

-- 
--=> Peter A. Castro
Email: doctor at fruitbat dot org / Peter dot Castro at oracle dot com
	"Cats are just autistic Dogs" -- Dr. Tony Attwood

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Oct 26 18:52, Michel LaBarre wrote:
> Corinna , thank you for the heads up regarding subsequent updates wrt Window
> 7.
> 
> Would it be possible to create a short "how-to" for installing the most
> recently "known-to-work-with-Windows-7" version of Cygwin (presuming that
> old versions remain accessible indefinitely...).  Alternately, how one can
> download a repository now that is compatible with Windows 7 and useable for
> installing Cygwin in anticipation of the upcoming loss of support.

No hurry.  As I wrote, 3.4.0 in 2022 will be the last version we support
on W7.  That doesn't mean Cygwin will immediately stop working on W7, we
just won't make concessions for W7 anymore in later versions than 3.4.x.
If you can reproduce a bug in 3.4.x, make sure to reproduce it on W8.1
or W10/11.


Corinna

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Takashi Yano]

On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 22:55:01 +0200
Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> We're also planning to drop Support for the 32 bit release of Cygwin in
> 2022, thus Cygwin 3.4.0 won't come in 32 bit anymore, and the package
> maintainers won't have to update 32 bit packages anymore.  If you're
> still running Cygwin under WOW64, consider to move to 64 bit in the next
> couple of months.

I agree with you that 32 bit cygwin under WOW64 is not worth to
support any more. However, 32 bit version of Windows 10 will be
still supported at least until Oct. 2025. Personally, I think it
would not be nice to exclude the supported windows version from
cygwin support.

-- 
Takashi Yano <takashi.yano@nifty.ne.jp>

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Oct 27 09:24, Takashi Yano via Cygwin wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 22:55:01 +0200
> Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> > We're also planning to drop Support for the 32 bit release of Cygwin in
> > 2022, thus Cygwin 3.4.0 won't come in 32 bit anymore, and the package
> > maintainers won't have to update 32 bit packages anymore.  If you're
> > still running Cygwin under WOW64, consider to move to 64 bit in the next
> > couple of months.
> 
> I agree with you that 32 bit cygwin under WOW64 is not worth to
> support any more. However, 32 bit version of Windows 10 will be
> still supported at least until Oct. 2025. Personally, I think it
> would not be nice to exclude the supported windows version from
> cygwin support.

Well, it's not much effort to support WOW64 if we support 32 bit anyway.
The problem is that Cygwin is somehow outgrowing 32 bit systems in terms
of the available memory.  Also, 32 bit Cygwin is still using a 32 bit
time_t, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem

Per the download statistics, as far as those statistics are trustable,
32 bit systems are less than 5% of the installed base, with the majority
of them being WOW64 installations.  Those can move over to 64 bit Cygwin
easily.

Less than 1% are real 32 bit systems.

Dropping 32 bit support will reduce code complexity in Cygwin and it will
reduce the workload of the package maintainers.  Those few still running
Cygwin on a real 32 bit system will still have a chance to run Cygwin
by utilizing Peter's time machine.


Corinna

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Thomas Wolff]

Am 27.10.2021 um 10:49 schrieb Corinna Vinschen via Cygwin:
> On Oct 27 09:24, Takashi Yano via Cygwin wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 22:55:01 +0200
>> Corinna Vinschen wrote:
>>> We're also planning to drop Support for the 32 bit release of Cygwin in
>>> 2022, thus Cygwin 3.4.0 won't come in 32 bit anymore, and the package
>>> maintainers won't have to update 32 bit packages anymore.  If you're
>>> still running Cygwin under WOW64, consider to move to 64 bit in the next
>>> couple of months.
>> I agree with you that 32 bit cygwin under WOW64 is not worth to
>> support any more. However, 32 bit version of Windows 10 will be
>> still supported at least until Oct. 2025. Personally, I think it
>> would not be nice to exclude the supported windows version from
>> cygwin support.
> Well, it's not much effort to support WOW64 if we support 32 bit anyway.
> The problem is that Cygwin is somehow outgrowing 32 bit systems in terms
> of the available memory.  Also, 32 bit Cygwin is still using a 32 bit
> time_t, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem
>
> Per the download statistics, as far as those statistics are trustable,
> 32 bit systems are less than 5% of the installed base, with the majority
> of them being WOW64 installations.  Those can move over to 64 bit Cygwin
> easily.
>
> Less than 1% are real 32 bit systems.
I think roughly 1% is still a community to consider. Working old 
machines shouldn't be trashed just because they are missing a few bits :)

> Dropping 32 bit support will reduce code complexity in Cygwin and it will
> reduce the workload of the package maintainers.
Code complexity was also an argument when dropping XP support, but there 
was quite some discussion at its time.
For `egrep "# *if.*(32|64)"` I'm counting roughly 160 matches in winsup, 
but only in a few files. Is it really necessary?

> Those few still running
> Cygwin on a real 32 bit system will still have a chance to run Cygwin
> by utilizing Peter's time machine.

Peter's time machine is a very appreciable effort. It's a bit fiddly though to figure out how to use it, particularly to identify the "latest XP version". Maybe some explicit howto could be published on the cygwin pages?

Thomas

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Oct 27 11:37, Thomas Wolff wrote:
> Am 27.10.2021 um 10:49 schrieb Corinna Vinschen via Cygwin:
> > Less than 1% are real 32 bit systems.
> I think roughly 1% is still a community to consider. Working old machines
> shouldn't be trashed just because they are missing a few bits :)
> 
> > Dropping 32 bit support will reduce code complexity in Cygwin and it will
> > reduce the workload of the package maintainers.
> Code complexity was also an argument when dropping XP support, but there was
> quite some discussion at its time.

There's always discussion.  Supporting older systems gets unfeasible at
one point.  The hoops you have to jump through to get the same
functionality or just an adequate fake to replace stuff readily
available on later systems are in part considerable.  Just have a quick
look at clock.cc.  Practically all clock types need an OS check and a
workaround for older systems.

> For `egrep "# *if.*(32|64)"` I'm counting roughly 160 matches in winsup, but
> only in a few files. Is it really necessary?

Look again, just check for `# *if.*86' instead.  Ignoring the math
lib, 212 conditional compilations in 74 files, some of them really
tricky.  exceptions.cc is a nightmare in itself.  Plus the wrapper
functions still supporting Cygwin executables built under Cygwin 1.3,
which only affects 32 bit anyway.  If this can go away, the code base
will be *much* simpler and easier to understand and *maybe* it will help
to find somebody interested in sharing Cygwin maintainership.  We're all
not getting younger...

> > Those few still running
> > Cygwin on a real 32 bit system will still have a chance to run Cygwin
> > by utilizing Peter's time machine.
> 
> Peter's time machine is a very appreciable effort. It's a bit fiddly
> though to figure out how to use it, particularly to identify the
> "latest XP version". Maybe some explicit howto could be published on
> the cygwin pages?

Sure, if somebody wants to write up something, no problem to publish
it on the Cygwin website.


Corinna

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Peter A. Castro]

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 11:37:26AM +0200, Thomas Wolff wrote:

Greetings, Thomas,

> Am 27.10.2021 um 10:49 schrieb Corinna Vinschen via Cygwin:
> > On Oct 27 09:24, Takashi Yano via Cygwin wrote:
> > > On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 22:55:01 +0200
> > > Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> > > > We're also planning to drop Support for the 32 bit release of Cygwin in
> > > > 2022, thus Cygwin 3.4.0 won't come in 32 bit anymore, and the package
> > > > maintainers won't have to update 32 bit packages anymore.  If you're
> > > > still running Cygwin under WOW64, consider to move to 64 bit in the next
> > > > couple of months.
> > > I agree with you that 32 bit cygwin under WOW64 is not worth to
> > > support any more. However, 32 bit version of Windows 10 will be
> > > still supported at least until Oct. 2025. Personally, I think it
> > > would not be nice to exclude the supported windows version from
> > > cygwin support.
> > Well, it's not much effort to support WOW64 if we support 32 bit anyway.
> > The problem is that Cygwin is somehow outgrowing 32 bit systems in terms
> > of the available memory.  Also, 32 bit Cygwin is still using a 32 bit
> > time_t, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem
> > 
> > Per the download statistics, as far as those statistics are trustable,
> > 32 bit systems are less than 5% of the installed base, with the majority
> > of them being WOW64 installations.  Those can move over to 64 bit Cygwin
> > easily.
> > 
> > Less than 1% are real 32 bit systems.
> I think roughly 1% is still a community to consider. Working old machines
> shouldn't be trashed just because they are missing a few bits :)
> 
> > Dropping 32 bit support will reduce code complexity in Cygwin and it will
> > reduce the workload of the package maintainers.
> Code complexity was also an argument when dropping XP support, but there was
> quite some discussion at its time.
> For `egrep "# *if.*(32|64)"` I'm counting roughly 160 matches in winsup, but
> only in a few files. Is it really necessary?
> 
> > Those few still running
> > Cygwin on a real 32 bit system will still have a chance to run Cygwin
> > by utilizing Peter's time machine.
> 
> Peter's time machine is a very appreciable effort. It's a bit fiddly though to figure out how to use it, particularly to identify the "latest XP version". Maybe some explicit howto could be published on the cygwin pages?

Could you please give an example of the "fiddly" bit?  I list the URLs
to use with the install and it's clearly labeled "The last version of
Cygwin that supports XP is 2.5.2-1".  Or were you, perhaps, refering to
the actual usage of the URL in the Setup program?

Another user, Michel, responded that perhaps a more explicit message
with exact steps for install this might be helpful (as the "Dead Simple
Instructions" are generic), but I'm not sure it's really necessary.  Is
that, perhaps, what you are refering to in that the instructions aren't
explicit enough?

> Thomas
> 
> 
> -- 
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-- 
--=> Peter A. Castro
Email: doctor at fruitbat dot org / Peter dot Castro at oracle dot com
	"Cats are just autistic Dogs" -- Dr. Tony Attwood

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Thomas Wolff]

Hi Peter,

Am 27.10.2021 um 18:46 schrieb Peter A. Castro:
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 11:37:26AM +0200, Thomas Wolff wrote:
>
> Greetings, Thomas,
>
>> Am 27.10.2021 um 10:49 schrieb Corinna Vinschen via Cygwin:
>>> On Oct 27 09:24, Takashi Yano via Cygwin wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 22:55:01 +0200
>>>> Corinna Vinschen wrote:
>>>>> We're also planning to drop Support for the 32 bit release of Cygwin in
>>>>> 2022, thus Cygwin 3.4.0 won't come in 32 bit anymore, and the package
>>>>> maintainers won't have to update 32 bit packages anymore.  If you're
>>>>> still running Cygwin under WOW64, consider to move to 64 bit in the next
>>>>> couple of months.
>>>> I agree with you that 32 bit cygwin under WOW64 is not worth to
>>>> support any more. However, 32 bit version of Windows 10 will be
>>>> still supported at least until Oct. 2025. Personally, I think it
>>>> would not be nice to exclude the supported windows version from
>>>> cygwin support.
>>> Well, it's not much effort to support WOW64 if we support 32 bit anyway.
>>> The problem is that Cygwin is somehow outgrowing 32 bit systems in terms
>>> of the available memory.  Also, 32 bit Cygwin is still using a 32 bit
>>> time_t, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem
>>>
>>> Per the download statistics, as far as those statistics are trustable,
>>> 32 bit systems are less than 5% of the installed base, with the majority
>>> of them being WOW64 installations.  Those can move over to 64 bit Cygwin
>>> easily.
>>>
>>> Less than 1% are real 32 bit systems.
>> I think roughly 1% is still a community to consider. Working old machines
>> shouldn't be trashed just because they are missing a few bits :)
>>
>>> Dropping 32 bit support will reduce code complexity in Cygwin and it will
>>> reduce the workload of the package maintainers.
>> Code complexity was also an argument when dropping XP support, but there was
>> quite some discussion at its time.
>> For `egrep "# *if.*(32|64)"` I'm counting roughly 160 matches in winsup, but
>> only in a few files. Is it really necessary?
>>
>>> Those few still running
>>> Cygwin on a real 32 bit system will still have a chance to run Cygwin
>>> by utilizing Peter's time machine.
>> Peter's time machine is a very appreciable effort. It's a bit fiddly though to figure out how to use it, particularly to identify the "latest XP version". Maybe some explicit howto could be published on the cygwin pages?
> Could you please give an example of the "fiddly" bit?  I list the URLs
> to use with the install and it's clearly labeled "The last version of
> Cygwin that supports XP is 2.5.2-1".  Or were you, perhaps, refering to
> the actual usage of the URL in the Setup program?
On http://www.crouchingtigerhiddenfruitbat.org/Cygwin/timemachine.html, 
I see a setup link and a repository URL.
If I run that setup and enter the URL on the mirror selection page, I 
get an error popup
---------------------------
Cygwin Setup
---------------------------
Can't open /software/windows/cygwin32/x86_64/setup.xz.sig for reading: 
No such file or directory
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------
So I should have deselected the preselected repository explicitly. If I 
fix that or click the popup off a few times, there's another popup
---------------------------
Cygwin Setup
---------------------------
Unable to get 
http://ctm.crouchingtigerhiddenfruitbat.org/pub/cygwin/circa/64bit/2016/08/30/104235/x86_64/setup.xz.sig 
from 
<http://ctm.crouchingtigerhiddenfruitbat.org/pub/cygwin/circa/64bit/2016/08/30/104235/>
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------
repeatedly.
The command line you mentioned in the other mail does not seem to work 
either. The 32-bit version works (from the command line only). Also 
setup suggests my existing cygwin installation as its installation 
target which needs to be fixed carefully to avoid destruction...

> Another user, Michel, responded that perhaps a more explicit message
> with exact steps for install this might be helpful (as the "Dead Simple
> Instructions" are generic), but I'm not sure it's really necessary.  Is
> that, perhaps, what you are refering to in that the instructions aren't
> explicit enough?
An explicit quote of a safely working command line invocation would 
certainly help.
Best greetings
Thomas

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Peter A. Castro]

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 11:04:16PM +0200, Thomas Wolff wrote:
> Hi Peter,

Greetings, Thomas,

> Am 27.10.2021 um 18:46 schrieb Peter A. Castro:
> > On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 11:37:26AM +0200, Thomas Wolff wrote:
> > 
> > Greetings, Thomas,
> > 
> > > Am 27.10.2021 um 10:49 schrieb Corinna Vinschen via Cygwin:
> > > > On Oct 27 09:24, Takashi Yano via Cygwin wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 22:55:01 +0200
> > > > > Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> > > > > > We're also planning to drop Support for the 32 bit release of Cygwin in
> > > > > > 2022, thus Cygwin 3.4.0 won't come in 32 bit anymore, and the package
> > > > > > maintainers won't have to update 32 bit packages anymore.  If you're
> > > > > > still running Cygwin under WOW64, consider to move to 64 bit in the next
> > > > > > couple of months.
> > > > > I agree with you that 32 bit cygwin under WOW64 is not worth to
> > > > > support any more. However, 32 bit version of Windows 10 will be
> > > > > still supported at least until Oct. 2025. Personally, I think it
> > > > > would not be nice to exclude the supported windows version from
> > > > > cygwin support.
> > > > Well, it's not much effort to support WOW64 if we support 32 bit anyway.
> > > > The problem is that Cygwin is somehow outgrowing 32 bit systems in terms
> > > > of the available memory.  Also, 32 bit Cygwin is still using a 32 bit
> > > > time_t, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem
> > > > 
> > > > Per the download statistics, as far as those statistics are trustable,
> > > > 32 bit systems are less than 5% of the installed base, with the majority
> > > > of them being WOW64 installations.  Those can move over to 64 bit Cygwin
> > > > easily.
> > > > 
> > > > Less than 1% are real 32 bit systems.
> > > I think roughly 1% is still a community to consider. Working old machines
> > > shouldn't be trashed just because they are missing a few bits :)
> > > 
> > > > Dropping 32 bit support will reduce code complexity in Cygwin and it will
> > > > reduce the workload of the package maintainers.
> > > Code complexity was also an argument when dropping XP support, but there was
> > > quite some discussion at its time.
> > > For `egrep "# *if.*(32|64)"` I'm counting roughly 160 matches in winsup, but
> > > only in a few files. Is it really necessary?
> > > 
> > > > Those few still running
> > > > Cygwin on a real 32 bit system will still have a chance to run Cygwin
> > > > by utilizing Peter's time machine.
> > > Peter's time machine is a very appreciable effort. It's a bit fiddly though to figure out how to use it, particularly to identify the "latest XP version". Maybe some explicit howto could be published on the cygwin pages?
> > Could you please give an example of the "fiddly" bit?  I list the URLs
> > to use with the install and it's clearly labeled "The last version of
> > Cygwin that supports XP is 2.5.2-1".  Or were you, perhaps, refering to
> > the actual usage of the URL in the Setup program?
> On http://www.crouchingtigerhiddenfruitbat.org/Cygwin/timemachine.html, I
> see a setup link and a repository URL.
> If I run that setup and enter the URL on the mirror selection page, I get an
> error popup
> ---------------------------
> Cygwin Setup
> ---------------------------
> Can't open /software/windows/cygwin32/x86_64/setup.xz.sig for reading: No
> such file or directory
> ---------------------------
> OK
> ---------------------------
> So I should have deselected the preselected repository explicitly. If I fix
> that or click the popup off a few times, there's another popup
> ---------------------------
> Cygwin Setup
> ---------------------------
> Unable to get http://ctm.crouchingtigerhiddenfruitbat.org/pub/cygwin/circa/64bit/2016/08/30/104235/x86_64/setup.xz.sig
> from <http://ctm.crouchingtigerhiddenfruitbat.org/pub/cygwin/circa/64bit/2016/08/30/104235/>
> ---------------------------
> OK
> ---------------------------
> repeatedly.

I see.

Yes, that is the setup signature file.  At the top of the timemachine
webpage there is a note is bold saying:

"NOTE: Please remember to use the '-X' option when running setup!! (See
update 08/05/2008 for details)."

Now, it could be that setup is ignoring that option or that that option
doesn't fully bypass the check for the signature file.  It used to and I
though it still does, but perhaps, that functionality has change?  Need
to ask Jon about that.

> The command line you mentioned in the other mail does not seem to work
> either. The 32-bit version works (from the command line only). Also setup
> suggests my existing cygwin installation as its installation target which
> needs to be fixed carefully to avoid destruction...

So, that is an issue with how setup is invoked.  Running from the
command line and using the -X works, as you say, but staring it from an
icon doesn't give you any option to supply the -X. so, yes, I can see
that is a problem, but I don't have a way around it.

So, yes, I agree this is a little "fiddly" as you claim.

> > Another user, Michel, responded that perhaps a more explicit message
> > with exact steps for install this might be helpful (as the "Dead Simple
> > Instructions" are generic), but I'm not sure it's really necessary.  Is
> > that, perhaps, what you are refering to in that the instructions aren't
> > explicit enough?
> An explicit quote of a safely working command line invocation would
> certainly help.

I'll take that under advisement and see what I can do.
Thank you for the feedback!

> Best greetings
> Thomas
> 
> -- 
> Problem reports:      https://cygwin.com/problems.html
> FAQ:                  https://cygwin.com/faq/
> Documentation:        https://cygwin.com/docs.html
> Unsubscribe info:     https://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple

-- 
--=> Peter A. Castro
Email: doctor at fruitbat dot org / Peter dot Castro at oracle dot com
	"Cats are just autistic Dogs" -- Dr. Tony Attwood

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Andrew Schulman]

> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 22:55:01 +0200
> Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> > We're also planning to drop Support for the 32 bit release of Cygwin in
> > 2022, thus Cygwin 3.4.0 won't come in 32 bit anymore, and the package
> > maintainers won't have to update 32 bit packages anymore.  If you're
> > still running Cygwin under WOW64, consider to move to 64 bit in the next
> > couple of months.
> 
> I agree with you that 32 bit cygwin under WOW64 is not worth to
> support any more. However, 32 bit version of Windows 10 will be
> still supported at least until Oct. 2025. Personally, I think it
> would not be nice to exclude the supported windows version from
> cygwin support.

On the one hand, it's not much more work to build packages for x86.

On the other hand, 32-bit Cygwin will still be available - it just won't be
updated, unless package maintainers want to. It's been many years since
32-bit PCs were sold. I don't know how many 32-bit PCs are still in use and
running Cygwin, but it can't be very many.

Overall, I agree that it's time.

Re: Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[L A Walsh]

On 2021/10/26 13:55, Corinna Vinschen via Cygwin wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
>
> The upcoming version 3.3.0 is the last version officially supporting
> Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008.
>
> The next major release 3.4.0 will be released in 2022 and will be the
> last one officially supporting Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows Server 2008 R2, and Windows Server 2012.
----
    Is that like 2022-Jan, or 2022-Dec?  Sigh.

Re: Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Corinna Vinschen]

On Oct 27 04:03, L A Walsh wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2021/10/26 13:55, Corinna Vinschen via Cygwin wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> > 
> > 
> > The upcoming version 3.3.0 is the last version officially supporting
> > Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008.
> > 
> > The next major release 3.4.0 will be released in 2022 and will be the
> > last one officially supporting Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows Server 2008 R2, and Windows Server 2012.
> ----
>    Is that like 2022-Jan, or 2022-Dec?  Sigh.

We simply don't know yet.  Jan is very unlikely, though.


Corinna

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Jim Reisert AD1C]

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 2:55 PM Corinna Vinschen wrote:

> The upcoming version 3.3.0 is the last version officially supporting
> Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008.
>
> The next major release 3.4.0 will be released in 2022 and will be the
> last one officially supporting Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows Server 2008
> R2, and Windows Server 2012.
>
> We're also planning to drop Support for the 32 bit release of Cygwin in
> 2022

This is all good.  I really appreciate all the developer's efforts
with Cygwin.  There are thousands of ham radio operators all over the
world who would not be getting data file updates without this
software!

-- 
Jim Reisert AD1C, <jjreisert@alum.mit.edu>, https://www.ad1c.us

Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support

[Damon Register]

On 10/27/2021 11:25 AM, Jim Reisert AD1C wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 2:55 PM Corinna Vinschen wrote:
> 
>> The upcoming version 3.3.0 is the last version officially supporting
>> Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008.
>>
>> The next major release 3.4.0 will be released in 2022 and will be the
>> last one officially supporting Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows Server 2008
>> R2, and Windows Server 2012.
>>
>> We're also planning to drop Support for the 32 bit release of Cygwin in
>> 2022
> 
> This is all good.  I really appreciate all the developer's efforts
> with Cygwin.  There are thousands of ham radio operators all over the
> world who would not be getting data file updates without this
> software!
I am not sure that I follow this.  Are you saying that amateur radio
users will be fine with the loss of old Windows support?  The
appreciation is a general thanks for all that Cygwin developers
do or is it a hint that you hope they don't drop old Windows?

If it is the hope that old Windows isn't dropped, then it makes
me smile a little.  Now that I am in amateur radio, I see that
it is an expensive hobby and a new computer is a small cost
compared to the radio equipment

Damon Register
KK4OFV

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support [XEmacs for 64-bit?]

[Dan Harkless]

On 10/26/2021 1:55 PM, Corinna Vinschen via Cygwin wrote:
> We're also planning to drop Support for the 32 bit release of Cygwin in
> 2022, thus Cygwin 3.4.0 won't come in 32 bit anymore, and the package
> maintainers won't have to update 32 bit packages anymore.  If you're
> still running Cygwin under WOW64, consider to move to 64 bit in the next
> couple of months.
Except for my 32-bit Windows 7 (upgraded to 8.1) netbook, the only 
reason I still install Cygwin32 in parallel with Cygwin64 is so I can 
install the XEmacs packages.  Anyone know more about the difficulty in 
getting those packages to work on 64-bit?  XEmacs from EPEL works fine 
on 64-bit Linux, FWIW.

 From past attempts, I know it would take far too much time (and Elisp 
programming) to get GNU Emacs up to the usability level that I've had 
XEmacs at since the '90s.

(w3m-img is another package only available on Cygwin32 that I install, 
but I don't use it and am not concerned about that one.)

Thanks,
Dan Harkless

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support [XEmacs for 64-bit?]

[Dan Harkless]

Oops, sorry for the direct email.  Didn't realize you now have to use 
the "Reply List" button that pops into existence rather than the normal 
Reply button.  I re-sent to the list.

- Dan Harkless


On 10/27/2021 3:35 PM, Dan Harkless wrote:
> On 10/26/2021 1:55 PM, Corinna Vinschen via Cygwin wrote:
>> We're also planning to drop Support for the 32 bit release of Cygwin in
>> 2022, thus Cygwin 3.4.0 won't come in 32 bit anymore, and the package
>> maintainers won't have to update 32 bit packages anymore.  If you're
>> still running Cygwin under WOW64, consider to move to 64 bit in the next
>> couple of months.
> Except for my 32-bit Windows 7 (upgraded to 8.1) netbook, the only 
> reason I still install Cygwin32 in parallel with Cygwin64 is so I can 
> install the XEmacs packages.  Anyone know more about the difficulty in 
> getting those packages to work on 64-bit?  XEmacs from EPEL works fine 
> on 64-bit Linux, FWIW.
>
> From past attempts, I know it would take far too much time (and Elisp 
> programming) to get GNU Emacs up to the usability level that I've had 
> XEmacs at since the '90s.
>
> (w3m-img is another package only available on Cygwin32 that I install, 
> but I don't use it and am not concerned about that one.)
>
> Thanks,
> Dan Harkless

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support [XEmacs for 64-bit?]

[Dan Harkless]

On 10/26/2021 1:55 PM, Corinna Vinschen via Cygwin wrote:
> We're also planning to drop Support for the 32 bit release of Cygwin in
> 2022, thus Cygwin 3.4.0 won't come in 32 bit anymore, and the package
> maintainers won't have to update 32 bit packages anymore.  If you're
> still running Cygwin under WOW64, consider to move to 64 bit in the next
> couple of months.
Except for my 32-bit Windows 7 (upgraded to 8.1) netbook, the only 
reason I still install Cygwin32 in parallel with Cygwin64 is so I can 
install the XEmacs packages.  Anyone know more about the difficulty in 
getting those packages to work on 64-bit?  XEmacs from EPEL works fine 
on 64-bit Linux, FWIW.

 From past attempts, I know it would take far too much time (and Elisp 
programming) to get GNU Emacs up to the usability level that I've had 
XEmacs at since the '90s.

(w3m-img is another package only available on Cygwin32 that I install, 
but I don't use it and am not concerned about that one.)

Thanks,
Dan Harkless

Re: [HEADSUP] Phasing out old Windows versions and 32 bit support [XEmacs for 64-bit?]

[Henry S. Thompson]

Dan Harkless via Cygwin writes:

> ...
> Anyone know more about the difficulty in getting those packages to
> work on 64-bit?

Um, yes, I did a lot of work on that back in 2015 and got it working
under Cygwin, with a lot of help from Vin Shelton, but never to the
point of public release because it _only_ compiled with gcc, not with
native Windows C tool chain.

I still use it every day, it crashes about once a week.  Given the
demise of 32-bit, I'll try to get back to it some time in the next few
months, but there's other stuff in the queue ahead of that...

ht
-- 
       Henry S. Thompson, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh
      10 Crichton Street, Edinburgh EH8 9AB, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
                Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@inf.ed.ac.uk
                       URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/
 [mail from me _always_ has a .sig like this -- mail without it is forged spam]

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.