DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com

DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com

[cyg Simple]

I find this excerpt from cygwin-help a bit confusing.  Notice the
"yahoo.com" in the "Remote host said:" message.  What's really going on
here?  Why is yahoo.com doing the authentication for a gmail.com address?

<excerpt>
Received: (qmail 130602 invoked for bounce); 17 Nov 2016 10:26:04 -0000
Date: 17 Nov 2016 10:26:04 -0000
From: MAILER-DAEMON@sourceware.org
To: cygwin-return-205832-@cygwin.com
Subject: failure notice

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at sourceware.org.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

<cygsimple@gmail.com>:
User and password not set, continuing without authentication.
<cygsimple@gmail.com> 173.194.202.27 failed after I sent the message.
Remote host said: 550-5.7.1 Unauthenticated email from yahoo.com is not
accepted due to domain's
550-5.7.1 DMARC policy. Please contact the administrator of yahoo.com
domain if
550-5.7.1 this was a legitimate mail. Please visit
550-5.7.1  https://support.google.com/mail/answer/2451690 to learn about the
550 5.7.1 DMARC initiative. e69si30940847pfk.231 - gsmtp
</excerpt>

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Re: DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com

[Jack]

On 2016.11.29 09:24, cyg Simple wrote:
> I find this excerpt from cygwin-help a bit confusing.  Notice the
> "yahoo.com" in the "Remote host said:" message.  What's really going  
> on
> here?  Why is yahoo.com doing the authentication for a gmail.com  
> address?
> 
> <excerpt>
> Received: (qmail 130602 invoked for bounce); 17 Nov 2016 10:26:04  
> -0000
> Date: 17 Nov 2016 10:26:04 -0000
> From: MAILER-DAEMON@sourceware.org
> To: cygwin-return-205832-@cygwin.com
> Subject: failure notice
> 
> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at sourceware.org.
> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following  
> addresses.
> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
> 
> <cygsimple@gmail.com>:
> User and password not set, continuing without authentication.
> <cygsimple@gmail.com> 173.194.202.27 failed after I sent the message.
> Remote host said: 550-5.7.1 Unauthenticated email from yahoo.com is  
> not
> accepted due to domain's
> 550-5.7.1 DMARC policy. Please contact the administrator of yahoo.com
> domain if
> 550-5.7.1 this was a legitimate mail. Please visit
> 550-5.7.1  https://support.google.com/mail/answer/2451690 to learn  
> about the
> 550 5.7.1 DMARC initiative. e69si30940847pfk.231 - gsmtp
> </excerpt>
> 
> --
> cyg Simple
I haven't looked at the details of this particular error, but are you  
using an alias'd address?  For example, my return address here is  
@users.sourceforge.net.  However, they only resend mail to that address  
to my real address @frontier.com.  I have validated to frontier.com  
that I really do own the address @sourcegforge.net.  So I send through  
the frontier server with a From: address of sourceforge.

In my case, with a KDE mailing list, when KDE gets a message, they ask  
the domain of the message (sourceforge) about their policy.  Recently,  
they upped the level, and so told KDE to reject any mail appearing to  
be from sourceforge if it didn't actually come from their.  Thus I got  
lots of this type of error.  Someone finally convinced sourceforge that  
didn't make sense, since one of their offerings is aliased email  
addresses, which were then all bouncing.

So, your From: is gmail.  Are you actually sending through a gmail  
server, or through a yahoo server?  (Note yahoo servers handle all  
sorts of other domains, not lease most of the domains used by AT&T as  
an ISP.)

Jack
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Re: DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com

[cyg Simple]

On 11/29/2016 10:28 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 2016.11.29 09:24, cyg Simple wrote:
>> I find this excerpt from cygwin-help a bit confusing.  Notice the
>> "yahoo.com" in the "Remote host said:" message.  What's really going on
>> here?  Why is yahoo.com doing the authentication for a gmail.com address?
>>
>> <excerpt>
>> Received: (qmail 130602 invoked for bounce); 17 Nov 2016 10:26:04 -0000
>> Date: 17 Nov 2016 10:26:04 -0000
>> From: MAILER-DAEMON@sourceware.org
>> To: cygwin-return-205832-@cygwin.com
>> Subject: failure notice
>>
>> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at sourceware.org.
>> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following
>> addresses.
>> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
>>
>> <cygsimple@gmail.com>:
>> User and password not set, continuing without authentication.
>> <cygsimple@gmail.com> 173.194.202.27 failed after I sent the message.
>> Remote host said: 550-5.7.1 Unauthenticated email from yahoo.com is not
>> accepted due to domain's
>> 550-5.7.1 DMARC policy. Please contact the administrator of yahoo.com
>> domain if
>> 550-5.7.1 this was a legitimate mail. Please visit
>> 550-5.7.1  https://support.google.com/mail/answer/2451690 to learn
>> about the
>> 550 5.7.1 DMARC initiative. e69si30940847pfk.231 - gsmtp
>> </excerpt>
>>

>
> I haven't looked at the details of this particular error, but are you
> using an alias'd address?  

No, I have the cygsimple address directly enrolled.  In fact on this
list if you use a forwarding address like users.sourceforge.net you'll
need to also register the primary address that address resolves to.

-- 
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Re: DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com

[David Macek]

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On 29. 11. 2016 15:24, cyg Simple wrote:
> I find this excerpt from cygwin-help a bit confusing.  Notice the
> "yahoo.com" in the "Remote host said:" message.  What's really going on
> here?  Why is yahoo.com doing the authentication for a gmail.com address?
> 
> <excerpt>
> Received: (qmail 130602 invoked for bounce); 17 Nov 2016 10:26:04 -0000
> Date: 17 Nov 2016 10:26:04 -0000
> From: MAILER-DAEMON@sourceware.org
> To: cygwin-return-205832-@cygwin.com
> Subject: failure notice
> 
> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at sourceware.org.
> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
> 
> <cygsimple@gmail.com>:
> User and password not set, continuing without authentication.
> <cygsimple@gmail.com> 173.194.202.27 failed after I sent the message.
> Remote host said: 550-5.7.1 Unauthenticated email from yahoo.com is not
> accepted due to domain's
> 550-5.7.1 DMARC policy. Please contact the administrator of yahoo.com
> domain if
> 550-5.7.1 this was a legitimate mail. Please visit
> 550-5.7.1  https://support.google.com/mail/answer/2451690 to learn about the
> 550 5.7.1 DMARC initiative. e69si30940847pfk.231 - gsmtp
> </excerpt>
> 

Reading and understanding email bounces is notoriously hard.

I got the same email, just with my email address instead of yours. The problem is not related to the recipient's address, but to the sender's address. A quick query to <cygwin-get.205832@cygwin.com> got me the original message that bounced. Its headers follow.

> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 04:25:22 -0500
> From: Ian Lambert <ian.lambert_42@yahoo.com>
> To: cygwin@cygwin.com,Marco Atzeri <marco.atzeri@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Resend: pdfseparate does nothing for me?
> Message-ID: <8C630CDB-03CD-4388-B8AC-7C2A033BEF67@yahoo.com>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What happens is that ezmlm (the mailing list software) broadcasts this message (after adding a bunch of links at the bottom) to everyone subscribed, but with the sender unchanged. Yahoo has got a DMARC policy set up that is supposed to ensure that only Yahoo servers can send messages marked as "from ...@yahoo.com". As you can see, Google is enforcing the policy and correctly rejecting the message as fake (it really wasn't sent by Yahoo, but by Sourceware). This is only going to happen more and more often as email providers up the battle against spam.

The best solution is to change the way ezmlm re-sends the messages, I bet there's a big discussion about it somewhere on the Internet.

-- 
David Macek


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Re: DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com

[Erik Soderquist]

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 11:19 AM, David Macek wrote:
> What happens is that ezmlm (the mailing list software) broadcasts this
> message (after adding a bunch of links at the bottom) to everyone
> subscribed, but with the sender unchanged. Yahoo has got a DMARC policy
> set up that is supposed to ensure that only Yahoo servers can send
> messages marked as "from ...@yahoo.com". As you can see, Google is
> enforcing the policy and correctly rejecting the message as fake (it
> really wasn't sent by Yahoo, but by Sourceware). This is only going to
> happen more and more often as email providers up the battle against
> spam.
>
> The best solution is to change the way ezmlm re-sends the messages, I
> bet there's a big discussion about it somewhere on the Internet.

Probably hundreds if not thousands of such discussions!

Who is in charge of the list server configuration?  Sourceware itself, or
someone from Cygwin?

-- Erik

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Re: DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 29 November 2016 at 11:59, Erik Soderquist <ErikSoderquist@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 11:19 AM, David Macek wrote:
>> What happens is that ezmlm (the mailing list software) broadcasts this
>> message (after adding a bunch of links at the bottom) to everyone
>> subscribed, but with the sender unchanged. Yahoo has got a DMARC policy
>> set up that is supposed to ensure that only Yahoo servers can send
>> messages marked as "from ...@yahoo.com". As you can see, Google is
>> enforcing the policy and correctly rejecting the message as fake (it
>> really wasn't sent by Yahoo, but by Sourceware). This is only going to
>> happen more and more often as email providers up the battle against
>> spam.
>>
>> The best solution is to change the way ezmlm re-sends the messages, I
>> bet there's a big discussion about it somewhere on the Internet.
>
> Probably hundreds if not thousands of such discussions!
>
> Who is in charge of the list server configuration?  Sourceware itself, or
> someone from Cygwin?

Sourceware runs the lists


-- 
Stephen J Smoogen.

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Re: DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com

[Corinna Vinschen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1648 bytes --]

On Nov 29 13:25, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> On 29 November 2016 at 11:59, Erik Soderquist <ErikSoderquist@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 11:19 AM, David Macek wrote:
> >> What happens is that ezmlm (the mailing list software) broadcasts this
> >> message (after adding a bunch of links at the bottom) to everyone
> >> subscribed, but with the sender unchanged. Yahoo has got a DMARC policy
> >> set up that is supposed to ensure that only Yahoo servers can send
> >> messages marked as "from ...@yahoo.com". As you can see, Google is
> >> enforcing the policy and correctly rejecting the message as fake (it
> >> really wasn't sent by Yahoo, but by Sourceware). This is only going to
> >> happen more and more often as email providers up the battle against
> >> spam.
> >>
> >> The best solution is to change the way ezmlm re-sends the messages, I
> >> bet there's a big discussion about it somewhere on the Internet.
> >
> > Probably hundreds if not thousands of such discussions!
> >
> > Who is in charge of the list server configuration?  Sourceware itself, or
> > someone from Cygwin?
> 
> Sourceware runs the lists

Indeed.  The problem is, I have no idea what this is about.  If you have
problems in terms of the sourceware mailer stuff, please feel free to
politely explain what the problem is and ask if that can be fixed on
either the overseers AT sourceware DOT org mailing list, or the Freenode
IRC channel #overseers.


Thanks,
Corinna

-- 
Corinna Vinschen                  Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to
Cygwin Maintainer                 cygwin AT cygwin DOT com
Red Hat

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Fwd: Re: DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com

[cyg Simple]

Overseers,

See the description below of a problem that is occurring because of
DMARC rules in place by yahoo.com.  Is there anything you can do for this?

Regards,
cygSimple


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 11:59:53 -0500
From: Erik Soderquist <ErikSoderquist@gmail.com>
To: cygwin@cygwin.com

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 11:19 AM, David Macek wrote:
> What happens is that ezmlm (the mailing list software) broadcasts this
> message (after adding a bunch of links at the bottom) to everyone
> subscribed, but with the sender unchanged. Yahoo has got a DMARC policy
> set up that is supposed to ensure that only Yahoo servers can send
> messages marked as "from ...@yahoo.com". As you can see, Google is
> enforcing the policy and correctly rejecting the message as fake (it
> really wasn't sent by Yahoo, but by Sourceware). This is only going to
> happen more and more often as email providers up the battle against
> spam.
>
> The best solution is to change the way ezmlm re-sends the messages, I
> bet there's a big discussion about it somewhere on the Internet.

Probably hundreds if not thousands of such discussions!

Who is in charge of the list server configuration?  Sourceware itself, or
someone from Cygwin?


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Re: Fwd: Re: DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com

[Christopher Faylor]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:00:12AM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:55:49AM -0500, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote:
>>cygsimple wrote:
>>> See the description below of a problem that is occurring because of
>>> DMARC rules in place by yahoo.com.  Is there anything you can do for this?
>>
>>cgf, any chance of updating our copy of ezmlm-toaster etc.?
>>Newer-than-2014 versions of ezmlm-idx seem to have some DMARC
>>capabilities.
>
>I started looking at this when it came in.  No ETA yet.

I'm going to use start using a new version of ezmlm-send on Friday.  It will
rewrite the From addresses of any domain which wants to use DMARC.  From what
I've read, that should stop yahoo and gmail from complaining.

cgf

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Re: Fwd: Re: DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com

[Christopher Faylor]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:00:12AM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:55:49AM -0500, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote:
>>cygsimple wrote:
>>> See the description below of a problem that is occurring because of
>>> DMARC rules in place by yahoo.com.  Is there anything you can do for this?
>>
>>cgf, any chance of updating our copy of ezmlm-toaster etc.?
>>Newer-than-2014 versions of ezmlm-idx seem to have some DMARC
>>capabilities.
>
>I started looking at this when it came in.  No ETA yet.

Huh.  I thought I sent an update about this but it vanished in the aether.

I just turned on a new DMARC-aware version of ezmlm-send which rewrites
the From address for any domain that is DMARC sensitive to something like:

"User name via mailinglist <mailinglist@sourceware.org>"

when the mail is broadcast to the mailing list.  I would have done this
sooner but my ezmlm skills were really rusty and I almost ran out of
extremities to shoot.

Please send any errors or issues encountered to overseers@sourceware.org.

cgf

Re: Fwd: Re: DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com

[David Macek]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1526 bytes --]

On 10. 12. 2016 21:39, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:00:12AM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:55:49AM -0500, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote:
>>> cygsimple wrote:
>>>> See the description below of a problem that is occurring because of
>>>> DMARC rules in place by yahoo.com.  Is there anything you can do for this?
>>>
>>> cgf, any chance of updating our copy of ezmlm-toaster etc.?
>>> Newer-than-2014 versions of ezmlm-idx seem to have some DMARC
>>> capabilities.
>>
>> I started looking at this when it came in.  No ETA yet.
> 
> Huh.  I thought I sent an update about this but it vanished in the aether.

FWIW, I received a message on [Thu, 8 Dec 2016 21:14:41 -0800 (PST)]:

> I'm going to use start using a new version of ezmlm-send on Friday.  It will
> rewrite the From addresses of any domain which wants to use DMARC.  From what
> I've read, that should stop yahoo and gmail from complaining.

> I just turned on a new DMARC-aware version of ezmlm-send which rewrites
> the From address for any domain that is DMARC sensitive to something like:
> 
> "User name via mailinglist <mailinglist@sourceware.org>"
> 
> when the mail is broadcast to the mailing list.  I would have done this
> sooner but my ezmlm skills were really rusty and I almost ran out of
> extremities to shoot.

Thanks. By the way, does that include domains with SPF?

> Please send any errors or issues encountered to overseers@sourceware.org.

-- 
David Macek


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Re: Fwd: Re: DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com

[cyg Simple]

On 12/10/2016 3:39 PM, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:00:12AM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:55:49AM -0500, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote:
>>> cygsimple wrote:
>>>> See the description below of a problem that is occurring because of
>>>> DMARC rules in place by yahoo.com.  Is there anything you can do for this?
>>>
>>> cgf, any chance of updating our copy of ezmlm-toaster etc.?
>>> Newer-than-2014 versions of ezmlm-idx seem to have some DMARC
>>> capabilities.
>>
>> I started looking at this when it came in.  No ETA yet.
> 
> Huh.  I thought I sent an update about this but it vanished in the aether.
> 
> I just turned on a new DMARC-aware version of ezmlm-send which rewrites
> the From address for any domain that is DMARC sensitive to something like:
> 
> "User name via mailinglist <mailinglist@sourceware.org>"
> 
> when the mail is broadcast to the mailing list.  I would have done this
> sooner but my ezmlm skills were really rusty and I almost ran out of
> extremities to shoot.
> 
> Please send any errors or issues encountered to overseers@sourceware.org.

The issue continues.

Here are the message numbers:

   206020
   206062

--- Enclosed is a copy of the bounce message I received.

Return-Path: <>
Received: (qmail 128079 invoked for bounce); 2 Dec 2016 17:38:50 -0000
Date: 2 Dec 2016 17:38:50 -0000
From: MAILER-DAEMON@sourceware.org
To: cygwin-return-206020-@cygwin.com
Subject: failure notice

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at sourceware.org.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

<cygsimple@gmail.com>:
User and password not set, continuing without authentication.
<cygsimple@gmail.com> 173.194.203.26 failed after I sent the message.
Remote host said: 550-5.7.1 Unauthenticated email from yahoo.com is not
accepted due to domain's
550-5.7.1 DMARC policy. Please contact the administrator of yahoo.com
domain if
550-5.7.1 this was a legitimate mail. Please visit
550-5.7.1  https://support.google.com/mail/answer/2451690 to learn about the
550 5.7.1 DMARC initiative. e85si746691pfj.218 - gsmtp


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Re: Fwd: Re: DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com

[Christopher Faylor]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 09:15:46AM -0500, cyg Simple wrote:
>On 12/10/2016 3:39 PM, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:00:12AM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:55:49AM -0500, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote:
>>>> cygsimple wrote:
>>>>> See the description below of a problem that is occurring because of
>>>>> DMARC rules in place by yahoo.com.  Is there anything you can do for this?
>>>>
>>>> cgf, any chance of updating our copy of ezmlm-toaster etc.?
>>>> Newer-than-2014 versions of ezmlm-idx seem to have some DMARC
>>>> capabilities.
>>>
>>> I started looking at this when it came in.  No ETA yet.
>> 
>> Huh.  I thought I sent an update about this but it vanished in the aether.
>> 
>> I just turned on a new DMARC-aware version of ezmlm-send which rewrites
>> the From address for any domain that is DMARC sensitive to something like:
>> 
>> "User name via mailinglist <mailinglist@sourceware.org>"
>> 
>> when the mail is broadcast to the mailing list.  I would have done this
>> sooner but my ezmlm skills were really rusty and I almost ran out of
>> extremities to shoot.
>> 
>> Please send any errors or issues encountered to overseers@sourceware.org.
>
>The issue continues.
>
>Here are the message numbers:
>
>   206020
>   206062

I sent the above on 12/10.  Those messages were sent on 12/1 and 12/7
respectively.  The change was not retroactive.

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Re: Fwd: Re: DMARC - gmail.com or is it yahoo.com

[cyg Simple]

On 12/14/2016 10:28 AM, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 09:15:46AM -0500, cyg Simple wrote:
>> On 12/10/2016 3:39 PM, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:00:12AM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:55:49AM -0500, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote:
>>>>> cygsimple wrote:
>>>>>> See the description below of a problem that is occurring because of
>>>>>> DMARC rules in place by yahoo.com.  Is there anything you can do for this?
>>>>>
>>>>> cgf, any chance of updating our copy of ezmlm-toaster etc.?
>>>>> Newer-than-2014 versions of ezmlm-idx seem to have some DMARC
>>>>> capabilities.
>>>>
>>>> I started looking at this when it came in.  No ETA yet.
>>>
>>> Huh.  I thought I sent an update about this but it vanished in the aether.
>>>
>>> I just turned on a new DMARC-aware version of ezmlm-send which rewrites
>>> the From address for any domain that is DMARC sensitive to something like:
>>>
>>> "User name via mailinglist <mailinglist@sourceware.org>"
>>>
>>> when the mail is broadcast to the mailing list.  I would have done this
>>> sooner but my ezmlm skills were really rusty and I almost ran out of
>>> extremities to shoot.
>>>
>>> Please send any errors or issues encountered to overseers@sourceware.org.
>>
>> The issue continues.
>>
>> Here are the message numbers:
>>
>>   206020
>>   206062
> 
> I sent the above on 12/10.  Those messages were sent on 12/1 and 12/7
> respectively.  The change was not retroactive.

But I only received the reject notice today. Yes, I understand the delay
mechanism across multiple systems.  Thanks for checking.

-- 
cyg Simple

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