[ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Corinna Vinschen]

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Hi folks,


Now that Windows 2003 is finally out of long term support, and given
that XP's much-too-long-term support ended 2014, I'll drop support for
XP and Server 2003 from Cygwin End of 2015.

At this point I'll remove all my XP and 2003 test installations which
are already going mouldy for a long time.  I won't follow up on bug
reports which can't be reproduced on at least Windows Vista (was there
any XP-specific bug report in the last couple of years anyway?).

And during 2016 I will also slowly remove all the workarounds and
kludges necessary to keep these zombies running, thus simplifing the
codebase.

I'd love to do that rather sooner than later, but I wanted to give you
an early headsup.


Corinna

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Helmut Karlowski]

Corinna Vinschen 
Wed, 26 Aug 2015 11:32:14 +0200
---------------------------------------------------

> Now that Windows 2003 is finally out of long term support, and given
> that XP's much-too-long-term support ended 2014, I'll drop support for
> XP and Server 2003 from Cygwin End of 2015.

He - I'm still on XP!

> reports which can't be reproduced on at least Windows Vista (was there
> any XP-specific bug report in the last couple of years anyway?).

Maybe because XP rules?

> And during 2016 I will also slowly remove all the workarounds and
> kludges necessary to keep these zombies running, thus simplifing the
> codebase.

Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
on the way.

-Helmut

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Helmut Karlowski]

Corinna Vinschen 
Wed, 26 Aug 2015 11:32:14 +0200
---------------------------------------------------

> Now that Windows 2003 is finally out of long term support, and given
> that XP's much-too-long-term support ended 2014, I'll drop support for
> XP and Server 2003 from Cygwin End of 2015.

He - I'm still on XP!

> reports which can't be reproduced on at least Windows Vista (was there
> any XP-specific bug report in the last couple of years anyway?).

Maybe because XP rules?

> And during 2016 I will also slowly remove all the workarounds and
> kludges necessary to keep these zombies running, thus simplifing the
> codebase.

Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
on the way.

-Helmut

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RE: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[wilson]

> > Now that Windows 2003 is finally out of long term support, and given
> > that XP's much-too-long-term support ended 2014, I'll drop support for
> > XP and Server 2003 from Cygwin End of 2015.
> He - I'm still on XP!
So am I.  Windows 7 doesn't have some features I rely on and Windows 8.X was
a disaster.  Win 10 seems to be focused not on what users need, but on how
much Microsoft can squeeze out of their wallets.
> > reports which can't be reproduced on at least Windows Vista (was there
> > any XP-specific bug report in the last couple of years anyway?).
> Maybe because XP rules?
Definitely XP rules! XP may not be supported my Microsoft, but it is still
in use by a wide range of individuals and companies.  I'm sorry to hear that
Cygwin will not be supporting these users in the near future.
> > And during 2016 I will also slowly remove all the workarounds and
> > kludges necessary to keep these zombies running, thus simplifing the
> > codebase.
> Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
> on the way.
From what I've seen and heard W10, while mostly stable, still coerces users
towards the software as (an expensive) service model and follows the dictum
that Microsoft knows more about what you want than you do (default saves to
microsoft cloud storage, grabs your pictures for background slide show
without asking, etc.).
Their recent "security" patch that put machines in an endless reboot cycle
shows the company still hasn't focused on quality or customer needs instead
of corporate profits.  Win10 has no new innovations that customers need, few
if any actual security improvements, and a huge price tag in terms of
upgrades, expensive services, and retraining.  I'll stick with Win XP for a
while longer then switch to open source products and Linux when I must.  In
the mean time, I guess I will have to say a sad good-bye to Cygwin when they
leave.
Sincerely,
Brian S. Wilson


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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Helmut Karlowski]

> > Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
> > on the way.
> From what I've seen and heard W10, while mostly stable, still coerces users
> towards the software as (an expensive) service model and follows the dictum
> that Microsoft knows more about what you want than you do (default saves to
> microsoft cloud storage, grabs your pictures for background slide show
> without asking, etc.).

I hope I can customize it to behave like XP (only the goodies of 
course).

And shutdown/disable all the spying internet-connections.

> Their recent "security" patch that put machines in an endless reboot cycle
> shows the company still hasn't focused on quality or customer needs instead
> of corporate profits.  Win10 has no new innovations that customers need, few
> if any actual security improvements, and a huge price tag in terms of
> upgrades, expensive services, and retraining.  I'll stick with Win XP for a
> while longer then switch to open source products and Linux when I must.  In
> the mean time, I guess I will have to say a sad good-bye to Cygwin when they
> leave.

Unfortulately I think I'm bound to windows which is all malware anyway
since1991 ;)

-Helmut

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RE: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[briansw]

> I hope I can customize it [Win 10] to behave like XP (only the goodies of
course).  And shutdown/disable all the spying internet-connections.
Good luck finding all the Microsoft spyware.  From what I can tell, Win 10
defaults to reporting almost everything to the company for their spam
servers to use.


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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Helmut Karlowski]

> Good luck finding all the Microsoft spyware.  From what I can tell, Win 10
> defaults to reporting almost everything to the company for their spam
> servers to use.

From my first inspection the remote-adress is something with akamai 
(may differ in other regions). I did shut them all down with 
currports, and the windows still worked ;)

But this becomes off-topic here I think.

-Helmut



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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Corinna Vinschen]

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On Aug 26 12:56, Helmut Karlowski wrote:
> > > Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
> > > on the way.
> > From what I've seen and heard W10, while mostly stable, still coerces users
> > towards the software as (an expensive) service model and follows the dictum
> > that Microsoft knows more about what you want than you do (default saves to
> > microsoft cloud storage, grabs your pictures for background slide show
> > without asking, etc.).
> 
> I hope I can customize it to behave like XP (only the goodies of 
> course).

http://classicshell.net

> And shutdown/disable all the spying internet-connections.

Mostly anyway: https://fix10.isleaked.com/

> > Their recent "security" patch that put machines in an endless reboot cycle
> > shows the company still hasn't focused on quality or customer needs instead
> > of corporate profits.  Win10 has no new innovations that customers need, few
> > if any actual security improvements, and a huge price tag in terms of
> > upgrades, expensive services, and retraining.  I'll stick with Win XP for a
> > while longer then switch to open source products and Linux when I must.  In
> > the mean time, I guess I will have to say a sad good-bye to Cygwin when they
> > leave.

I'm sorry to hear that (even if Linux is the perfect replacement), but
from a maintainance perspective, XP and 2003 are a real PITA.  They are
full of bugs on the OS level, some of them (on XP) builtin security
exploits.  They are especially missing *lots* of functionality added
with Vista/2008.  I'm not talking about functionality on the
user-visible level, those left me cold, too.  I'm talking about the
underlying Win32 API level.  The step from the 5.x to the 6.x kernels
was a major improvement, but a good amount of that new stuff is not used
in Cygwin because XP.

I'm really sorry if that's a problem for you, but I will be very glad to
finally get rid of that millstone around Cygwin's neck.

> Unfortulately I think I'm bound to windows which is all malware anyway
> since1991 ;)

Heh.


Corinna

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Helmut Karlowski]

Corinna Vinschen 

> > Unfortulately I think I'm bound to windows which is all malware anyway
> > since1991 ;)
> 
> Heh.

But thanks cygwin it's a place where I can live :-)

-Helmut

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Mike DePaulo]

On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Helmut Karlowski
<helmut.karlowski@ish.de> wrote:
>
> Corinna Vinschen
>
> > > Unfortulately I think I'm bound to windows which is all malware anyway
> > > since1991 ;)
> >
> > Heh.
>
> But thanks cygwin it's a place where I can live :-)

At Flock (Fedora Contributor Conference), I met people who hadn't used
Windows in years.

So how did I explain Cygwin to them?

I told them that Cygwin is "Like Giving A Glass of Ice Water To
Somebody in Hell."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM-DWAoVoR0

-Mike

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!

> On Aug 26 12:56, Helmut Karlowski wrote:
>> > > Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
>> > > on the way.
>> > From what I've seen and heard W10, while mostly stable, still coerces users
>> > towards the software as (an expensive) service model and follows the dictum
>> > that Microsoft knows more about what you want than you do (default saves to
>> > microsoft cloud storage, grabs your pictures for background slide show
>> > without asking, etc.).
>> 
>> I hope I can customize it to behave like XP (only the goodies of 
>> course).

> http://classicshell.net

That doesn't solve the hotkeys bound at driver levels, unfortunately.
Half of my keyboard dead now thanks to the move to Win7.

Anyway, on the topic: All I could ask is to give us a notice when the final
build for XP is available, so that we could prepare own mirrors.


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With best regards,
Andrey Repin
Wednesday, August 26, 2015 15:06:11

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 26 August 2015 at 06:23, Andrey Repin <anrdaemon@yandex.ru> wrote:
> Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!
>
>> On Aug 26 12:56, Helmut Karlowski wrote:
>>> > > Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
>>> > > on the way.
>>> > From what I've seen and heard W10, while mostly stable, still coerces users
>>> > towards the software as (an expensive) service model and follows the dictum
>>> > that Microsoft knows more about what you want than you do (default saves to
>>> > microsoft cloud storage, grabs your pictures for background slide show
>>> > without asking, etc.).
>>>
>>> I hope I can customize it to behave like XP (only the goodies of
>>> course).
>
>> http://classicshell.net
>
> That doesn't solve the hotkeys bound at driver levels, unfortunately.
> Half of my keyboard dead now thanks to the move to Win7.
>
> Anyway, on the topic: All I could ask is to give us a notice when the final
> build for XP is available, so that we could prepare own mirrors.

You will need more than mirrors. You will need to  set up a parallel
stack of builders and other tools because this will be a fork of
anything compiled against Cygwin from then on. You will also need to
look at how you are handling any bugs or problems utilities have in
rebuilding (but that is a longer term issue). Having had to do this in
the past, it will be better if you try to call this something
different. The reason being is that if you keep the name then when a
support ticket comes in from a user with Cygwin is it yours.. is it
the one they downloaded from the main site.. is it a version in
between?



-- 
Stephen J Smoogen.

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Stephen John Smoogen!

>> Anyway, on the topic: All I could ask is to give us a notice when the final
>> build for XP is available, so that we could prepare own mirrors.

> You will need more than mirrors. You will need to  set up a parallel
> stack of builders and other tools because this will be a fork of
> anything compiled against Cygwin from then on. You will also need to
> look at how you are handling any bugs or problems utilities have in
> rebuilding (but that is a longer term issue). Having had to do this in
> the past, it will be better if you try to call this something
> different. The reason being is that if you keep the name then when a
> support ticket comes in from a user with Cygwin is it yours.. is it
> the one they downloaded from the main site.. is it a version in
> between?

You're misunderstanding my daily use of Cygwin. I'm not compiling anything,
not cygwin-related anyway.
I'm using it as a bridging gap between sane scripting abilities of dash/make
and insane requirements of compiling tools such as BRCC.
And since Vista+ doesn't have support for 16-bit subsystem, I need XP VM to
compile my projects.


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Andrey Repin
Wednesday, August 26, 2015 16:40:31

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 26 August 2015 at 07:42, Andrey Repin <anrdaemon@yandex.ru> wrote:
> Greetings, Stephen John Smoogen!
>
>>> Anyway, on the topic: All I could ask is to give us a notice when the final
>>> build for XP is available, so that we could prepare own mirrors.
>
>> You will need more than mirrors. You will need to  set up a parallel
>> stack of builders and other tools because this will be a fork of
>> anything compiled against Cygwin from then on. You will also need to
>> look at how you are handling any bugs or problems utilities have in
>> rebuilding (but that is a longer term issue). Having had to do this in
>> the past, it will be better if you try to call this something
>> different. The reason being is that if you keep the name then when a
>> support ticket comes in from a user with Cygwin is it yours.. is it
>> the one they downloaded from the main site.. is it a version in
>> between?
>
> You're misunderstanding my daily use of Cygwin. I'm not compiling anything,
> not cygwin-related anyway.
> I'm using it as a bridging gap between sane scripting abilities of dash/make
> and insane requirements of compiling tools such as BRCC.
> And since Vista+ doesn't have support for 16-bit subsystem, I need XP VM to
> compile my projects.
>

Ah ok. If it is just a one man operation then an archive of the trees
at a certain time are all that is needed. If you have a large Windows
XP environment you are rolling out something to then you need to make
sure you can compile and deal with the 'forked' version... which I am
guessing that some segment of XP admins have to do.


-- 
Stephen J Smoogen.

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Re: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[AC]

On 2015-08-26 06:56, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> On 26 August 2015 at 07:42, Andrey Repin <anrdaemon@yandex.ru> wrote:
>> Greetings, Stephen John Smoogen!
>>
>>>> Anyway, on the topic: All I could ask is to give us a notice when the final
>>>> build for XP is available, so that we could prepare own mirrors.
>>
>>> You will need more than mirrors. You will need to  set up a parallel
>>> stack of builders and other tools because this will be a fork of
>>> anything compiled against Cygwin from then on. You will also need to
>>> look at how you are handling any bugs or problems utilities have in
>>> rebuilding (but that is a longer term issue). Having had to do this in
>>> the past, it will be better if you try to call this something
>>> different. The reason being is that if you keep the name then when a
>>> support ticket comes in from a user with Cygwin is it yours.. is it
>>> the one they downloaded from the main site.. is it a version in
>>> between?
>>
>> You're misunderstanding my daily use of Cygwin. I'm not compiling anything,
>> not cygwin-related anyway.
>> I'm using it as a bridging gap between sane scripting abilities of dash/make
>> and insane requirements of compiling tools such as BRCC.
>> And since Vista+ doesn't have support for 16-bit subsystem, I need XP VM to
>> compile my projects.
>>
> 
> Ah ok. If it is just a one man operation then an archive of the trees
> at a certain time are all that is needed. If you have a large Windows
> XP environment you are rolling out something to then you need to make
> sure you can compile and deal with the 'forked' version... which I am
> guessing that some segment of XP admins have to do.
> 

Is there a document somewhere that can describe this process of making a
mirror?  I have two XP machines that I won't be able to upgrade and I
just want to make sure I can reinstall Cygwin packages if needed.


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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, AC!

> Is there a document somewhere that can describe this process of making a
> mirror?  I have two XP machines that I won't be able to upgrade and I
> just want to make sure I can reinstall Cygwin packages if needed.

man rsync


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Andrey Repin
Thursday, August 27, 2015 04:04:13

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[AC]

On 2015-08-26 18:04, Andrey Repin wrote:
> Greetings, AC!
> 
>> Is there a document somewhere that can describe this process of making a
>> mirror?  I have two XP machines that I won't be able to upgrade and I
>> just want to make sure I can reinstall Cygwin packages if needed.
> 
> man rsync
> 
> 
Well rsync is fine for making mirrors in general, I meant making a
mirror of one of the existing Cygwin mirrors for which I would not have
shell access.  I suppose a recursive wget would be sufficient?

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, AC!

>>> Is there a document somewhere that can describe this process of making a
>>> mirror?  I have two XP machines that I won't be able to upgrade and I
>>> just want to make sure I can reinstall Cygwin packages if needed.
>> 
>> man rsync
>> 
>> 
> Well rsync is fine for making mirrors in general, I meant making a
> mirror of one of the existing Cygwin mirrors for which I would not have
> shell access.  I suppose a recursive wget would be sufficient?

When was the last time you read rsync manual?
When was the last time you've checked the mirrors list?
There's more ways to use rsync than through SSH wrapper.


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Andrey Repin
Thursday, August 27, 2015 07:47:30

Sorry for my terrible english...


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RE: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Buchbinder, Barry (NIH/NIAID) [E]]

AC sent the following at Wednesday, August 26, 2015 10:57 PM
>On 2015-08-26 18:04, Andrey Repin wrote: Well rsync is fine for making
>>> Is there a document somewhere that can describe this process of making a
>>> mirror?  I have two XP machines that I won't be able to upgrade and I
>>> just want to make sure I can reinstall Cygwin packages if needed.
>>
>> man rsync
>
>mirrors in general, I meant making a mirror of one of the existing
>Cygwin mirrors for which I would not have shell access. I suppose a
>recursive wget would be sufficient?

What about using setup's "download without installing" option?

- Barry
  Disclaimer: Statements made herein are not made on behalf of NIAID.

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, AC!

> Is there a document somewhere that can describe this process of making a
> mirror?  I have two XP machines that I won't be able to upgrade and I
> just want to make sure I can reinstall Cygwin packages if needed.

You'll also need to specify your mirror address in the command line to
setup.exe (and, indeed, you'll need to preserve setup.exe, though, it is
coming with the mirror, I recall).


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Andrey Repin
Thursday, August 27, 2015 04:15:30

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Peter A. Castro]

On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, AC wrote:

> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 17:30:27 -0700
> From: AC
> Subject: Re: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and
>     Server 2003 support
> 
> On 2015-08-26 06:56, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
>> On 26 August 2015 at 07:42, Andrey Repin wrote:
>>> Greetings, Stephen John Smoogen!
>>>
>>>>> Anyway, on the topic: All I could ask is to give us a notice when the final
>>>>> build for XP is available, so that we could prepare own mirrors.
>>>
>>>> You will need more than mirrors. You will need to  set up a parallel
>>>> stack of builders and other tools because this will be a fork of
>>>> anything compiled against Cygwin from then on. You will also need to
>>>> look at how you are handling any bugs or problems utilities have in
>>>> rebuilding (but that is a longer term issue). Having had to do this in
>>>> the past, it will be better if you try to call this something
>>>> different. The reason being is that if you keep the name then when a
>>>> support ticket comes in from a user with Cygwin is it yours.. is it
>>>> the one they downloaded from the main site.. is it a version in
>>>> between?
>>>
>>> You're misunderstanding my daily use of Cygwin. I'm not compiling anything,
>>> not cygwin-related anyway.
>>> I'm using it as a bridging gap between sane scripting abilities of dash/make
>>> and insane requirements of compiling tools such as BRCC.
>>> And since Vista+ doesn't have support for 16-bit subsystem, I need XP VM to
>>> compile my projects.
>>>
>>
>> Ah ok. If it is just a one man operation then an archive of the trees
>> at a certain time are all that is needed. If you have a large Windows
>> XP environment you are rolling out something to then you need to make
>> sure you can compile and deal with the 'forked' version... which I am
>> guessing that some segment of XP admins have to do.
>>
>
> Is there a document somewhere that can describe this process of making a
> mirror?  I have two XP machines that I won't be able to upgrade and I
> just want to make sure I can reinstall Cygwin packages if needed.

There is one other alternative to having your own historical mirror that I 
will plug: the Cygwin Time Machine

It is a constant archive of all versions of Cygwin going back to 2002 
(32-bit) and 2013 (64-bit), added to daily as newer versions of Cygwin 
are released.  Works with the standard Setup install tool.

-- 
--=> Peter A. Castro
Email: doctor at fruitbat dot org / Peter dot Castro at oracle dot com
 	"Cats are just autistic Dogs" -- Dr. Tony Attwood

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Frank Fesevur]

2015-08-26 15:42 GMT+02:00 Andrey Repin:
> And since Vista+ doesn't have support for 16-bit subsystem, I need XP VM to
> compile my projects.

AFAIK the 16-bit subsystem has nothing to do with XP vs Vista+. It has
to do with 32-bit OS vs 64-bit OS. Have you tried a 32 bit Win7 (or
maybe even a 32-bit Win10)?

Regards,
Frank

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Corinna Vinschen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1098 bytes --]

On Aug 26 15:23, Andrey Repin wrote:
> Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!
> 
> > On Aug 26 12:56, Helmut Karlowski wrote:
> >> > > Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
> >> > > on the way.
> >> > From what I've seen and heard W10, while mostly stable, still coerces users
> >> > towards the software as (an expensive) service model and follows the dictum
> >> > that Microsoft knows more about what you want than you do (default saves to
> >> > microsoft cloud storage, grabs your pictures for background slide show
> >> > without asking, etc.).
> >> 
> >> I hope I can customize it to behave like XP (only the goodies of 
> >> course).
> 
> > http://classicshell.net
> 
> That doesn't solve the hotkeys bound at driver levels, unfortunately.
> Half of my keyboard dead now thanks to the move to Win7.

I don't understand this one.  Quick explanation, please, even if it's OT?


Thanks,
Corinna

-- 
Corinna Vinschen                  Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to
Cygwin Maintainer                 cygwin AT cygwin DOT com
Red Hat

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!

> On Aug 26 15:23, Andrey Repin wrote:
>> Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!
>> 
>> > On Aug 26 12:56, Helmut Karlowski wrote:
>> >> > > Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
>> >> > > on the way.
>> >> > From what I've seen and heard W10, while mostly stable, still coerces users
>> >> > towards the software as (an expensive) service model and follows the dictum
>> >> > that Microsoft knows more about what you want than you do (default saves to
>> >> > microsoft cloud storage, grabs your pictures for background slide show
>> >> > without asking, etc.).
>> >> 
>> >> I hope I can customize it to behave like XP (only the goodies of 
>> >> course).
>> 
>> > http://classicshell.net
>> 
>> That doesn't solve the hotkeys bound at driver levels, unfortunately.
>> Half of my keyboard dead now thanks to the move to Win7.

> I don't understand this one.  Quick explanation, please, even if it's OT?

I was using Win+Arrows to switch between virtual desktops, and
Shift+Win+Arrows to move windows between desktops.
For years.
Decades even.
But SUDDENLY Microsoft decided that having such freedom is too much for the
user, or perhaps it was considered a security risk, I don't know.
I can no longer use these keys in userland.
Even if I disable the idiotic functionality that is bound to them by default,
I can't use these keys for anything else.


-- 
With best regards,
Andrey Repin
Thursday, August 27, 2015 02:38:48

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Corinna Vinschen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2037 bytes --]

On Aug 27 02:42, Andrey Repin wrote:
> Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!
> 
> > On Aug 26 15:23, Andrey Repin wrote:
> >> Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!
> >> 
> >> > On Aug 26 12:56, Helmut Karlowski wrote:
> >> >> > > Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
> >> >> > > on the way.
> >> >> > From what I've seen and heard W10, while mostly stable, still coerces users
> >> >> > towards the software as (an expensive) service model and follows the dictum
> >> >> > that Microsoft knows more about what you want than you do (default saves to
> >> >> > microsoft cloud storage, grabs your pictures for background slide show
> >> >> > without asking, etc.).
> >> >> 
> >> >> I hope I can customize it to behave like XP (only the goodies of 
> >> >> course).
> >> 
> >> > http://classicshell.net
> >> 
> >> That doesn't solve the hotkeys bound at driver levels, unfortunately.
> >> Half of my keyboard dead now thanks to the move to Win7.
> 
> > I don't understand this one.  Quick explanation, please, even if it's OT?
> 
> I was using Win+Arrows to switch between virtual desktops, and
> Shift+Win+Arrows to move windows between desktops.
> For years.
> Decades even.
> But SUDDENLY Microsoft decided that having such freedom is too much for the
> user, or perhaps it was considered a security risk, I don't know.
> I can no longer use these keys in userland.
> Even if I disable the idiotic functionality that is bound to them by default,
> I can't use these keys for anything else.

Well, I guess you're supposed to do this by wiping over the screen with your
fingertip...

On a more serious note, I read
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-desktop/how-do-i-change-the-windows-7-keyboard-shortcuts/0110d32d-66c0-4ce7-8682-eeb896e80c3f

Maybe one of AutoHotKey or KEYWIN2 are helpful?


Corinna

-- 
Corinna Vinschen                  Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to
Cygwin Maintainer                 cygwin AT cygwin DOT com
Red Hat

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!

>> >> That doesn't solve the hotkeys bound at driver levels, unfortunately.
>> >> Half of my keyboard dead now thanks to the move to Win7.
>> 
>> > I don't understand this one.  Quick explanation, please, even if it's OT?
>> 
>> I was using Win+Arrows to switch between virtual desktops, and
>> Shift+Win+Arrows to move windows between desktops.
>> For years.
>> Decades even.
>> But SUDDENLY Microsoft decided that having such freedom is too much for the
>> user, or perhaps it was considered a security risk, I don't know.
>> I can no longer use these keys in userland.
>> Even if I disable the idiotic functionality that is bound to them by default,
>> I can't use these keys for anything else.

> Well, I guess you're supposed to do this by wiping over the screen with your
> fingertip...

> On a more serious note, I read
> https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-desktop/how-do-i-change-the-windows-7-keyboard-shortcuts/0110d32d-66c0-4ce7-8682-eeb896e80c3f

> Maybe one of AutoHotKey or KEYWIN2 are helpful?

I don't know about Keywin2, but how AHK combat it is it hooking directly to
window's mssaging queue and intercept everything.
It can even intercept win+R and Ctrl+Shift+Esc. But it can't repost the keys
back to application that require them.
And what I want the least, is that kind of hooking in my system, it screw more
than solve.

P.S.
Ctrl+Alt+Tab is another "perfect" example of Microsoft ingenuity.
Like Alt+Tab, Alt+Esc and Win+Tab are all not enough to switch between windows.
No, they HAD to make Alt+Tab unusable, AND make ANOTHER hotkey to bring back
its original functionality.

P.P.S.
That's about all hotkeys that I know are now lost to the userland.
You can no longer use them in your own applications, unless you go to a great
length of seducing the OS to your side.


-- 
With best regards,
Andrey Repin
Friday, August 28, 2015 01:30:09

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Bryan Berns]

On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Andrey Repin <anrdaemon@yandex.ru> wrote:
> Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!
>
>> On Aug 26 12:56, Helmut Karlowski wrote:
>>> > > Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
>>> > > on the way.
>>> > From what I've seen and heard W10, while mostly stable, still coerces users
>>> > towards the software as (an expensive) service model and follows the dictum
>>> > that Microsoft knows more about what you want than you do (default saves to
>>> > microsoft cloud storage, grabs your pictures for background slide show
>>> > without asking, etc.).
>>>
>>> I hope I can customize it to behave like XP (only the goodies of
>>> course).
>
>> http://classicshell.net
>
> That doesn't solve the hotkeys bound at driver levels, unfortunately.
> Half of my keyboard dead now thanks to the move to Win7.
>
> Anyway, on the topic: All I could ask is to give us a notice when the final
> build for XP is available, so that we could prepare own mirrors.

If you're passionate about it and you have any programming experience,
keyboard filter drivers are quite easy to write.  Only annoying thing
is you need a signing certificate that is authorized for kernel code
signing -- which is only available to companies and some slightly more
expensive issuing authorities for individuals.

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Duncan Roe]

On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 05:57:06AM -0400, Bryan Berns wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Andrey Repin <anrdaemon@yandex.ru> wrote:
> > Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!
> >
> >> On Aug 26 12:56, Helmut Karlowski wrote:
> >>> > > Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
> >>> > > on the way.
> >>> > From what I've seen and heard W10, while mostly stable, still coerces users
> >>> > towards the software as (an expensive) service model and follows the dictum
> >>> > that Microsoft knows more about what you want than you do (default saves to
> >>> > microsoft cloud storage, grabs your pictures for background slide show
> >>> > without asking, etc.).
> >>>
> >>> I hope I can customize it to behave like XP (only the goodies of
> >>> course).
> >
> >> http://classicshell.net
> >
> > That doesn't solve the hotkeys bound at driver levels, unfortunately.
> > Half of my keyboard dead now thanks to the move to Win7.
> >
> > Anyway, on the topic: All I could ask is to give us a notice when the final
> > build for XP is available, so that we could prepare own mirrors.
>
> If you're passionate about it and you have any programming experience,
> keyboard filter drivers are quite easy to write.  Only annoying thing
> is you need a signing certificate that is authorized for kernel code
> signing -- which is only available to companies and some slightly more
> expensive issuing authorities for individuals.

Test signing? (works for com0com)

Cheers ... Duncan.

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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Bryan Berns!

> On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Andrey Repin <anrdaemon@yandex.ru> wrote:
>> Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!
>>
>>> On Aug 26 12:56, Helmut Karlowski wrote:
>>>> > > Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
>>>> > > on the way.
>>>> > From what I've seen and heard W10, while mostly stable, still coerces users
>>>> > towards the software as (an expensive) service model and follows the dictum
>>>> > that Microsoft knows more about what you want than you do (default saves to
>>>> > microsoft cloud storage, grabs your pictures for background slide show
>>>> > without asking, etc.).
>>>>
>>>> I hope I can customize it to behave like XP (only the goodies of
>>>> course).
>>
>>> http://classicshell.net
>>
>> That doesn't solve the hotkeys bound at driver levels, unfortunately.
>> Half of my keyboard dead now thanks to the move to Win7.
>>
>> Anyway, on the topic: All I could ask is to give us a notice when the final
>> build for XP is available, so that we could prepare own mirrors.

> If you're passionate about it and you have any programming experience,
> keyboard filter drivers are quite easy to write.

You don't even need to write anything - standard driver allows key remapping
through registry, if that's what you have in mind.
The driver is not a problem, though, it is OS that register hotkeys in the
kernel.

> Only annoying thing
> is you need a signing certificate that is authorized for kernel code
> signing -- which is only available to companies and some slightly more
> expensive issuing authorities for individuals.

Now, that is not an issue. :) At all.


-- 
With best regards,
Andrey Repin
Sunday, August 30, 2015 04:51:17

Sorry for my terrible english...


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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[KHMan]

On 8/30/2015 9:53 AM, Andrey Repin wrote:
> Greetings, Bryan Berns!
>
>> On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Andrey Repin wrote:
>>> Greetings, Corinna Vinschen!
>>>
>>>> On Aug 26 12:56, Helmut Karlowski wrote:
>>>>>>> Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
>>>>>>> on the way.
>>>>>>  From what I've seen and heard W10, while mostly stable, still coerces users
>>>>>> towards the software as (an expensive) service model and follows the dictum
>>>>>> that Microsoft knows more about what you want than you do (default saves to
>>>>>> microsoft cloud storage, grabs your pictures for background slide show
>>>>>> without asking, etc.).
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope I can customize it to behave like XP (only the goodies of
>>>>> course).
>>>
>>>> http://classicshell.net
>>>
>>> That doesn't solve the hotkeys bound at driver levels, unfortunately.
>>> Half of my keyboard dead now thanks to the move to Win7.
>>>
>>> Anyway, on the topic: All I could ask is to give us a notice when the final
>>> build for XP is available, so that we could prepare own mirrors.
>
>> If you're passionate about it and you have any programming experience,
>> keyboard filter drivers are quite easy to write.
>
> You don't even need to write anything - standard driver allows key remapping
> through registry, if that's what you have in mind.
> The driver is not a problem, though, it is OS that register hotkeys in the
> kernel.

One more data point... I moved from XP to Win7Pro not too long 
ago. I agree Cygwin should move beyond XP compatibility level. On 
XP machines which I now occasionally use, I don't expect to update 
Cygwin anymore. While an ability to reinstall Cygwin to the last 
XP-compatible packages would be nice, I have archives of disk 
partitions so I do not expect to reinstall ever.

Win7 does break a lot of VirtuaWin (for virtual desktops) hotkeys, 
in return for a lot of functionality I do not care for. Googling 
for solutions was fruitless. Settled for some loss of 
functionality (all the WinKey + arrow stuff etc), and use absolute 
targets instead of relative targets. That is, WinKey + NumPad# for 
switching desktops and Alt + WinKey + NumPad# for moving app 
windows to particular desktops. Not ideal, though tolerable, and I 
look forward to never ever using the Win10 UI. ;-)

-- 
Cheers,
Kein-Hong Man (esq.)
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia


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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Mike DePaulo]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1360 bytes --]

On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 5:51 AM, Helmut Karlowski <helmut.karlowski@ish.de>
wrote:

> Corinna Vinschen
> Wed, 26 Aug 2015 11:32:14 +0200
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
> > Now that Windows 2003 is finally out of long term support, and given
> > that XP's much-too-long-term support ended 2014, I'll drop support for
> > XP and Server 2003 from Cygwin End of 2015.
[...]
> > And during 2016 I will also slowly remove all the workarounds and
> > kludges necessary to keep these zombies running, thus simplifing the
> > codebase.
>
> Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
> on the way.
>
> -Helmut
>

Thank you for continuing to support them for so long.

Jon Turney and I were discussing that XWin still has code paths for
Windows 2000.

It's not that XWin checks the Windows version; it checks if a Windows
OS feature is available, and that feature was implemented in XP/2003.

Needless to say, those XWin code paths should be cleaned up. I don't
want to hijack this email thread though.

-Mike

(I tried to send this email 4 days ago from my Android phone's GMail
app, but the app tried to send some weird combination of plaintext +
HTML. Thus sourceware rejected it for containing HTML. So I am resending
this email from Thunderbird, and CC'ing Jon this time.)


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Early Deprecation Notice: Windows XP and Server 2003 support

[Mike DePaulo]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1360 bytes --]

On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 5:51 AM, Helmut Karlowski <helmut.karlowski@ish.de>
wrote:

> Corinna Vinschen
> Wed, 26 Aug 2015 11:32:14 +0200
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
> > Now that Windows 2003 is finally out of long term support, and given
> > that XP's much-too-long-term support ended 2014, I'll drop support for
> > XP and Server 2003 from Cygwin End of 2015.
[...]
> > And during 2016 I will also slowly remove all the workarounds and
> > kludges necessary to keep these zombies running, thus simplifing the
> > codebase.
>
> Guess that's better than to stick with the kludges, migration to 10 is
> on the way.
>
> -Helmut
>

Thank you for continuing to support them for so long.

Jon Turney and I were discussing that XWin still has code paths for
Windows 2000.

It's not that XWin checks the Windows version; it checks if a Windows
OS feature is available, and that feature was implemented in XP/2003.

Needless to say, those XWin code paths should be cleaned up. I don't
want to hijack this email thread though.

-Mike

(I tried to send this email 4 days ago from my Android phone's GMail
app, but the app tried to send some weird combination of plaintext +
HTML. Thus sourceware rejected it for containing HTML. So I am resending
this email from Thunderbird, and CC'ing Jon this time.)


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 213 bytes --]