[Bug localedata/14943] New: Artificial languages

[Bug localedata/14943] New: Artificial languages

[michael.moroni at mailoo dot org]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

             Bug #: 14943
           Summary: Artificial languages
           Product: glibc
           Version: unspecified
            Status: NEW
          Severity: normal
          Priority: P2
         Component: localedata
        AssignedTo: unassigned@sourceware.org
        ReportedBy: michael.moroni@mailoo.org
                CC: libc-locales@sources.redhat.com
    Classification: Unclassified


Dear Ulrich Dreeper,
Dearest developers,
The time has come to start discussing seriously about supporting artificial
languages, such as Esperanto.
Dreeper, during the last years, closed some related bugs as WONTFIX not only
without giving any reason[1][2][3][4] but also *insulting* people speaking
artificial languages[5].
I'm telling you to seriously discuss about it without creating any walls.
I hope that you reconsider the fact that artificial languages do exist and they
are not useless (see Wikipedia page for Esperanto[6]).
I think that it is too silly not to add support for such languages because they
are used actively and they are not simply "forks" of other languages
Debian[7] and Mandrake (Mandriva)[8] support eo_EO locale by default, Arch
Linux does support eo locale through AUR[9] and I don't know about Ubuntu.
What about fixing this problem by default inserting a patch upstream? In my
opinion it should be the most reasonable option to choice.
I hope you read this bug report and make the most intelligent choice.
I'm looking forward to receiving your answer,
- MM

[1] http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=2135#c3
[2] http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=2135#c9
[3] http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=711#c2
[4] http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=13190#c2
[5] http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=112#c8
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto_language
[7]
http://filewatcher.com/p/libc6-dev_2.2.5-11.8_mips.deb.3020726/usr/share/doc/libc6-dev/changelog.Debian.gz.html
glibc (2.1.1-2)
[8]
http://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub//Linux/distributions/Mandrake/2005/x86_64/media/media_info/compss
[9] https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/esperanto-locale/

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[aj at suse dot de]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

Andreas Jaeger <aj at suse dot de> changed:

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--- Comment #1 from Andreas Jaeger <aj at suse dot de> 2012-12-11 21:26:02 UTC ---
Michael, we reworked our position already and recently added Interlingua. I
think an Esperanto locale if properly introduced would be welcome. For details
see the libc-alpha archives.

A big question for me is what kind of country code to use for it - as well what
kind of formats to use for date and time formats.

Could you send a patch to libc-alpha@sourceware.org with a new Esperanto locale
and a rationale for the decisions made, please?

Let's discuss on that list what's the best choice is.

Btw. glibc 2.17 has an initial translation to Esperanto just no locale yet.

thanks,
Andreas

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[bugdal at aerifal dot cx]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

Rich Felker <bugdal at aerifal dot cx> changed:

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                 CC|                            |bugdal at aerifal dot cx

--- Comment #2 from Rich Felker <bugdal at aerifal dot cx> 2012-12-11 23:18:35 UTC ---
Is there a reason locales HAVE TO have a country code? I think, for languages
that are not connected to a country, or where for political reasons the
language's country is not recognized internationally, it would be very helpful
to have traditional locale names of the format "ll" or "lll" instead of
requiring the "ll_CC" form. The country-specific parts of the locale like
currency, which would not make sense in such a context, could simply be aligned
with the C locale.

If said languages are also heavily used in one or more particular country
contexts, it would be nice to also add "ll_CC" format locales for them with the
appropriate country-specific parts. But I think it's really annoying to force
users who want to use the language to choose from a limited set of countries
that do not correspond to the country they're in.

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[aj at suse dot de]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

--- Comment #3 from Andreas Jaeger <aj at suse dot de> 2012-12-12 08:06:57 UTC ---
(In reply to comment #2)
> Is there a reason locales HAVE TO have a country code?

So far each one has one - and it might be that some of the infrastructure for
installing it, requires it. This is something to discuss on the mailing list
IMO.

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[schwab@linux-m68k.org]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

--- Comment #4 from Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> 2012-12-12 08:43:35 UTC ---
If you want to switch only the language set the LANGUAGE variable, see the
gettext manual.  Locales are always country specific.

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[fweimer at redhat dot com]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

Florian Weimer <fweimer at redhat dot com> changed:

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                 CC|                            |fweimer at redhat dot com

--- Comment #5 from Florian Weimer <fweimer at redhat dot com> 2012-12-12 09:13:29 UTC ---
(In reply to comment #1)
> A big question for me is what kind of country code to use for it - as well what
> kind of formats to use for date and time formats.

Unicode uses ZZ: <http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/>

We could follow this example or pick something else from the private use range
(say, XN).

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[bugtrack at roumenpetrov dot info]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

Roumen Petrov <bugtrack at roumenpetrov dot info> changed:

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                 CC|                            |bugtrack at roumenpetrov
                   |                            |dot info

--- Comment #6 from Roumen Petrov <bugtrack at roumenpetrov dot info> 2012-12-12 21:31:50 UTC ---
I cannot understand why optional territory (an ISO 3166 country code) was read
as required in GNU lib C. 
It seems to me we read different manuals or one and the same but interpretation
is different.

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[bugdal at aerifal dot cx]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

--- Comment #7 from Rich Felker <bugdal at aerifal dot cx> 2012-12-13 01:28:18 UTC ---
I share Roumen Petrov's sentiment completely. There is no justification for
this arbitrary policy position, which is unwelcoming not only to users of
languages that aren't associated with a specific country, but hostile to users'
whose countries are not recognized internationally.

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[aj at suse dot de]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

--- Comment #8 from Andreas Jaeger <aj at suse dot de> 2012-12-13 06:52:42 UTC ---
Hi, you read far more into my comment regarding countries than intented to say.

I'm not *requiring* a country, I require that the choice of country is well
explained and depending on what is done, it is tested that the tools and
infrastructure handle it properly.

We have a meta discussion here. If somebody is interested in Esperanto, test
the locale, send it to libc-alpha and explain the choices made and let's
discuss this.

Since we already have Interlingua as locale and Esperanto as language I suggest
to close this bug report as FIXED. The issue has been revisited, now somebody
needs to look at specific examples.

Btw. completely artificial toy languages will not get added.

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[hpa at zytor dot com]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

hpa@zytor.com <hpa at zytor dot com> changed:

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                 CC|                            |hpa at zytor dot com

--- Comment #9 from hpa at zytor dot com <hpa at zytor dot com> 2013-01-09 06:05:05 UTC ---
For a root locale "eo" or "eo_ZZ" seems reasonable, but in practice I suspect
that Esperanto locales will need to have localizations, i.e. eo_US which uses
the U.S. conventions for currency and so on.  Unfortunately "locale" combines a
number of partly orthogonal concepts -- some of which may even be user or
application specific and need to be overridden.  An example of the latter was a
previous employer of mine which had to distribute an "en_US@Transmeta" locale
to all systems to support a single application, so that %' could be used to
print numbers with underscore thousands separators.

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[bpeeluk at yahoo dot co.uk]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

--- Comment #10 from Neil Roberts <bpeeluk at yahoo dot co.uk> 2013-03-03 17:50:32 UTC ---
Created attachment 6914
  --> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=6914
Patch to add eo_FR

Here's a patch to add an eo_FR locale for using Esperanto in France. I think
the French monetary and numeric systems are close enough to what people would
expect for an international system so it's also a good general purpose
Esperanto locale. It is based the original international locale created by
Edmund Grimley Evans but with some changes to localise it to France. These
changes are described in the commit message.

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[bugdal at aerifal dot cx]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

--- Comment #11 from Rich Felker <bugdal at aerifal dot cx> 2013-03-04 00:17:02 UTC ---
> Here's a patch to add an eo_FR locale for using Esperanto in France. I think
> the French monetary and numeric systems are close enough to what people would
> expect for an international system so it's also a good general purpose
> Esperanto locale.

The radix point is a comma. This is pretty much a show-stopper. In the
international language of mathematics, radix point is "."

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[keld at keldix dot com]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

--- Comment #12 from keld at keldix dot com <keld at keldix dot com> 2013-03-04 05:43:09 UTC ---
On Mon, Mar 04, 2013 at 12:17:02AM +0000, bugdal at aerifal dot cx wrote:
> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943
> 
> --- Comment #11 from Rich Felker <bugdal at aerifal dot cx> 2013-03-04 00:17:02 UTC ---
> > Here's a patch to add an eo_FR locale for using Esperanto in France. I think
> > the French monetary and numeric systems are close enough to what people would
> > expect for an international system so it's also a good general purpose
> > Esperanto locale.
> 
> The radix point is a comma. This is pretty much a show-stopper. In the
> international language of mathematics, radix point is "."

The ISO radix point is comma, in mathemaitcs too. It is only USA and Canada
and some other English-speaking countries that use the period.

We are talking France, and they are using comma. I don't see this as a
show-stopper,
but only natural.

Best regards
keld

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[bpeeluk at yahoo dot co.uk]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

Neil Roberts <bpeeluk at yahoo dot co.uk> changed:

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                 CC|                            |bpeeluk at yahoo dot co.uk

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[bpeeluk at yahoo dot co.uk]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

--- Comment #13 from Neil Roberts <bpeeluk at yahoo dot co.uk> 2013-03-08 12:24:19 UTC ---
So what's the next steps to get this patch landed? Does someone specific need
to review it?

I think the comments by Keld cover the concerns with the radix point. There are
also some clarification in a widely respected book about Esperanto grammar
here:

http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/nombroj/matematiko.html

Roughly translated, it says “Don't use a period instead of a comma for
decimals. The period is used as a decimal sign only in a few countries.
Esperanto, like most countries and languages, uses a decimal comma”. It also
shows some examples of using the comma in mathematical writing.

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[carlos at redhat dot com]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

Carlos O'Donell <carlos at redhat dot com> changed:

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                 CC|                            |carlos at redhat dot com

--- Comment #14 from Carlos O'Donell <carlos at redhat dot com> 2013-03-11 22:19:05 UTC ---
(In reply to comment #13)
> So what's the next steps to get this patch landed? Does someone specific need
> to review it?
> 
> I think the comments by Keld cover the concerns with the radix point. There are
> also some clarification in a widely respected book about Esperanto grammar
> here:
> 
> http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/nombroj/matematiko.html
> 
> Roughly translated, it says “Don't use a period instead of a comma for
> decimals. The period is used as a decimal sign only in a few countries.
> Esperanto, like most countries and languages, uses a decimal comma”. It also
> shows some examples of using the comma in mathematical writing.

The next step is to post a final patch to libc-alpha@sourceware.org, CC the
people who made comments here, and ask for final review. The post description
of the problem should address the concerns raised in v1 of the patch and if any
changes were made it should list them under a v2 entry.

Make sure to follow:
http://sourceware.org/glibc/wiki/Contribution%20checklist

One you have consensus then a developer with commit permission can check the
patch into master.

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[cjlhomeaddress at gmail dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

Chris Leonard <cjlhomeaddress at gmail dot com> changed:

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                 CC|                            |cjlhomeaddress at gmail dot com
             Blocks|                            |16190

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[cjlhomeaddress at gmail dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

--- Comment #15 from Chris Leonard <cjlhomeaddress at gmail dot com> ---
I have a suggestion.

Esperanto is currently the language of instruction of the International Academy
of Sciences in San Marino

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akademio_Internacia_de_la_Sciencoj_San_Marino

I propose submitting a locale for eo_SM in recognition of this fact.  It is no
more-or-less sound than the logic that lead to for for Interlingua.  Comments?

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[carlos at redhat dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

--- Comment #16 from Carlos O'Donell <carlos at redhat dot com> ---
I've emailed libc-alpha/libc-locles to get consensus on using locales without
country codes.

https://sourceware.org/ml/libc-locales/2013-q4/msg00137.html

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[fweimer at redhat dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

Florian Weimer <fweimer at redhat dot com> changed:

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              Flags|                            |security-

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[eichi237 at mailoo dot org]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

sinma <eichi237 at mailoo dot org> changed:

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                 CC|                            |eichi237 at mailoo dot org

--- Comment #17 from sinma <eichi237 at mailoo dot org> ---
Any news on this?

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[Bug localedata/14943] Artificial languages

[carlos at redhat dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14943

Carlos O'Donell <carlos at redhat dot com> changed:

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--- Comment #18 from Carlos O'Donell <carlos at redhat dot com> ---
Consensus is "eo" should be used without a region. Please submit patches to
libc-alpha for inclusion.

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