[Bug localedata/14085] New: English language locale for the Netherlands

[Bug localedata/14085] New: English language locale for the Netherlands

[pander at users dot sourceforge.net]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

             Bug #: 14085
           Summary: English language locale for the Netherlands
           Product: glibc
           Version: unspecified
            Status: NEW
          Severity: enhancement
          Priority: P2
         Component: localedata
        AssignedTo: unassigned@sourceware.org
        ReportedBy: pander@users.sourceforge.net
                CC: libc-locales@sources.redhat.com
    Classification: Unclassified


Internationally oriented users who are physically located in the Netherlands
use software mainly in the English language. Therefore they have their systems
usually configured to US English International. However, due to the geographic
location, it can be desirable for certain data to be represented according to
the local Dutch notation while the rest remains in English.

Therefore this locale called en_NL has been created. It is based on en_US and
has some parts from nl_NL. Please see comments starting with "%% use" how each
section has been composed. Note that this specific configuration is difficult
to obtain by using locale nl_NL and setting LANGUAGES to en.

The latest version is available at:
  https://github.com/PanderMusubi/locale-en-nl

Please include this locale in next release.

-- 
Configure bugmail: http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] English language locale for the Netherlands

[mistresssilvara at hotmail dot com]

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

-EMail Hidden- <mistresssilvara at hotmail dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |mistresssilvara at hotmail
                   |                            |dot com

--- Comment #1 from -EMail Hidden- <mistresssilvara at hotmail dot com> 2012-07-15 12:20:22 UTC ---
Requesting WONTFIX as for bug #12624.

-- 
Configure bugmail: http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] English language locale for the Netherlands

[fweimer at redhat dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

Florian Weimer <fweimer at redhat dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Flags|                            |security-

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] en_NL: new locale (English language for the Netherlands)

[vapier at gentoo dot org]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

Mike Frysinger <vapier at gentoo dot org> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Summary|English language locale for |en_NL: new locale (English
                   |the Netherlands             |language for the
                   |                            |Netherlands)

--- Comment #3 from Mike Frysinger <vapier at gentoo dot org> ---
i don't think this falls into the same bucket as bug 12624.  that's a request
for an esoteric locale that realistically speaking, no one is using today.  on
the other hand, en_NL has an active set of users.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] en_NL: new locale (English language for the Netherlands)

[vapier at gentoo dot org]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

--- Comment #4 from Mike Frysinger <vapier at gentoo dot org> ---
patch moved to the mailing list:
  https://sourceware.org/ml/libc-alpha/2016-04/msg00551.html

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] en_NL: new locale (English language for the Netherlands)

[vapier at gentoo dot org]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

--- Comment #5 from Mike Frysinger <vapier at gentoo dot org> ---
btw, there's no need for nl_NL@euro anymore.  since nl_NL itself is on the
euro, we keep the @euro variant around only for legacy reasons.  since en_NL is
a new locale, we can just omit en_NL@euro entirely.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] en_NL: new locale (English language for the Netherlands)

[programming at ertai dot nl]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

Rob Snelders <programming at ertai dot nl> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |programming at ertai dot nl

--- Comment #6 from Rob Snelders <programming at ertai dot nl> ---
This is a usefull addition for me. I do have to change my locale on each
terminal to a mix of en_US and nl_NL. So I have currently a script for that.
Please add this locale. Then I can use that.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] en_NL: new locale (English language for the Netherlands)

[pander at users dot sourceforge.net]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

--- Comment #7 from Pander <pander at users dot sourceforge.net> ---
The latest version at https://github.com/PanderMusubi/locale-en-nl has small
improvements due to discussion via email. Also documentation and validation has
been extended to provide more details for rationale and insight in exact
format.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] en_NL: new locale (English language for the Netherlands)

[vapier at gentoo dot org]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

--- Comment #8 from Mike Frysinger <vapier at gentoo dot org> ---
(In reply to Pander from comment #7)

OK, but we don't use github.  all patches/discussions are on the mailing list.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] en_NL: new locale (English language for the Netherlands)

[pander at users dot sourceforge.net]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

--- Comment #9 from Pander <pander at users dot sourceforge.net> ---
Ah, OK, I didn't know that. All questions and remarks got processed in the
latest version on GitHub. I leave it to the sponsor of this bug to repost a
patch on the mailing list and refer to GitHub for answers and improvements.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] en_NL: new locale (English language for the Netherlands)

[superherowolverine-sourcewareorg at yahoo dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

Robertino <superherowolverine-sourcewareorg at yahoo dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |superherowolverine-sourcewa
                   |                            |reorg at yahoo dot com

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] en_NL: new locale (English language for the Netherlands)

[pander at users dot sourceforge.net]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

--- Comment #10 from Pander <pander at users dot sourceforge.net> ---
This Thursday, at the 2016 fall conference of NLUUG, there will be a talk on
this locale. The locale will be discussed in all its details amongst an
audience of expert users to validate this locale and get consensus and support.
Minor changes will be made (some are already planned for the version on
GitHub). A new patch will be send to glibc via this issue early next week.

See also http://bit.ly/2gd1ZBu

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] en_NL: new locale (English language for the Netherlands)

[maiku.fabian at gmail dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

Mike FABIAN <maiku.fabian at gmail dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |maiku.fabian at gmail dot com

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] en_NL: new locale (English language for the Netherlands)

[pander at users dot sourceforge.net]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

--- Comment #11 from Pander <pander at users dot sourceforge.net> ---
In August I will send the final version. Came across a few minor bugs in other
locales which I will report first.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] en_NL: new locale (English language for the Netherlands)

[carlos at redhat dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

Carlos O'Donell <carlos at redhat dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|NEW                         |RESOLVED
                 CC|                            |carlos at redhat dot com
         Resolution|---                         |WONTFIX

--- Comment #12 from Carlos O'Donell <carlos at redhat dot com> ---
There is no consensus, and in fact there is opposition to the addition of en_*
locales for all countries that deal with English. Stated reasons include: size
of install, increased number of locales to pick from, complexity on the user
side for selecting those locales (Chris Leonard's "maximum parsimony" theory
;-)). Instead the generally accepted idea is that you should mix-and-match the
LC_* variables as needed, with the knowledge that this is not the most flexible
way to solve this problem. Individual distributions are free to include
whatever en_* locales they wish to build to suit their users. Likewise, users
can do the same thing.

Therefore until there is consensus formed around this issue I'm marking this
bug as RESOLVED/WONTFIX.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] en_NL: new locale (English language for the Netherlands)

[carlos at redhat dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

--- Comment #13 from Carlos O'Donell <carlos at redhat dot com> ---
(In reply to Carlos O'Donell from comment #12)
> There is no consensus, and in fact there is opposition to the addition of
> en_* locales for all countries that deal with English. Stated reasons
> include: size of install, increased number of locales to pick from,
> complexity on the user side for selecting those locales (Chris Leonard's
> "maximum parsimony" theory ;-)). Instead the generally accepted idea is that
> you should mix-and-match the LC_* variables as needed, with the knowledge
> that this is not the most flexible way to solve this problem. Individual
> distributions are free to include whatever en_* locales they wish to build
> to suit their users. Likewise, users can do the same thing.
> 
> Therefore until there is consensus formed around this issue I'm marking this
> bug as RESOLVED/WONTFIX.

I failed to mention that Mike Frysinger's suggestion of a new way to
mix-and-match language/territory is probably the right place to start for a
solution to this problem that doesn't include new locales.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] en_NL: new locale (English language for the Netherlands)

[pander at users dot sourceforge.net]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

--- Comment #14 from Pander <pander at users dot sourceforge.net> ---
Unfortunately, mixing on LC level doesn't do the trick. I gave a presentation
at NLUUG in 2016 in a room full of experienced sysadmin professionals
addressing all issues why not to include this. The locale was received with
great enthusiasm as it solves a series of problems that cannot be fixed in
another way. If you can find the time I could talk you through my presentation
personally.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.

[Bug localedata/14085] en_NL: new locale (English language for the Netherlands)

[superherowolverine-sourcewareorg at yahoo dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14085

--- Comment #15 from Robertino <superherowolverine-sourcewareorg at yahoo dot com> ---
https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=12624#c3 :
QUOTE
Accepting any such special-interest locale would open a flood.  There is no
reason to have such a locale in glibc.  The localedef utility is standardized
for a reason: locales can be compiled by anyone.

Just create a RPM or whatever which upon installation installs the files and
compiles the locale with localedef.
UNQUOTE

Adding "en_non-en" locales is not flooding.
Let's see what flooding is.

Somehow some people seem to forget that the EU (as we know it now) is a reality
since 1993. There are 24 official languages of the European Union. And 19 EU
member states. There is an internal single market in the EU where by law all
member states have agreed to act as one. Also, EU policies further the free
movement of **people**, goods, services and capital within this internal
market. Yes also people.
Has/Is anyone In The Netherlands working for a company that has Linux desktop
computers in their network and employs English speaking permies or English
speaking freelancers using those Linux computers?
And where more often than not one of the job requirements for native Dutch
speakers is : good (or better) written and spoken English. Because of the mix
of nationalities within the company. We are the USE (United States of Europe)
after all.
Has/Is anyone working for one of the many Japanese companies in The
Netherlands, where speaking and writing English is mandatory?

Has/Is anyone working for a company where Windows sysadmins keep Linux desktops
and laptops off their network and out the door because of locale issues?
Although staff would prefer to use Linux on the dersktop.

Some of the companies in The Netherlands that I worked as a freelance
contractor that had and still have many English speaking freelancers/permies :
ING Bank, ABN AMRO Bank, RABO Bank, MUFG Bank (nee Bank of Tokyo Mitsubishi
UFJ), Canon Europe BV, Kyocera Mita Europe, Cygnific BV (Air France-KLM's
worldwide support), XS4ALL BV (best ISP ever). They all refuse Linux desktops
for this locale issue.

ING Bank encountered major issues after they decided to build their new call
center software on Linux (server and desktop). As you guess the issues were
about locales on the desktop. Yes, they had to roll their own locales. I'm
still grateful that I did not work on that mope and grope project. That was in
late 2008.

You expect us to keep rinsing and repeating the ING effort almost 11 years
later? Almost 26 years after the beginning of the EU ?
Thanks for adding the Euro-sign though. It shaved 2 seconds off the work to
create a new locale. Hail Windows and Hail MacOS for putting in a genuinine
effort to conquer the desktop. Doh! Oops!

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.