[Bug localedata/16668] ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[Bug localedata/16668] ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[schwab@linux-m68k.org]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

--- Comment #1 from Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> ---
$ date --iso-8601
2014-03-06

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[Bug localedata/16668] New: ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

            Bug ID: 16668
           Summary: ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA
           Product: glibc
           Version: unspecified
            Status: NEW
          Severity: normal
          Priority: P2
         Component: localedata
          Assignee: unassigned at sourceware dot org
          Reporter: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca
                CC: libc-locales at sourceware dot org

This is an ongoing problem whose resolution seems stymied by an intransigent
maintainer.  See bug: Bug 12731 and Bug 9842.

The Government of Canada requires that dates and times on official documents be
formatted according to the ISO8901.  If altering the locales en_CA and fr_CA
are out of the question then cannot two supplemental locales, say en_CA@ISO and
en_fr@ISO, that address this issue be provided as well?

We deal with the Canadian Government via EDI and they require yyyy-mm-dd on our
transmissions.  We have had the painful experience of having to create our own
LOCALE definition file and then distribute it in order that our RedHatEL6 based
systems reflect this requirement.  We filed a bug with RH and they directed us
here.  Based on what I have read about this issue elsewhere on this site I have
little confidence that anything constructive will be done.

I must say that I was nonplussed when I read this statement in bug: 12731:

> It is completely irrelevant what should be expected.  Locales are
> about what people are using.  Programs displaying times all should
> have a special ISO 8601 mode and that's how you allow people to
> read the time this way.  If you don't like that then compile your
> own locale.  That's why there is a standardized lcoaledef program.
>  But I'm not going to change the format everyone but you expect under
> people's feet."

In point of fact, my experience with LOCALEs on Linux is that the one most
often used in Canada is en_US whose date format conforms neither with what
'everyone' in Canada is supposedly using according to the above statement nor
with what the Canadian Government has mandated.  Anyone who is selecting to use
either the en_CA or fr_CA is already in a tiny minority.  Given the mindset
evidenced in the argument used above to not include ISO8601 date time formats
in them one can only wonder then why en_CA and fr_CA local definitions are
provided at all.

Further, programs such as OpenOffice and LibreOffice depend upon the LOCALE
setting for their default formats and have maintainers that are as steadfast in
their refusal to provide an easy means for users to set a different default as
the glibc maintainers are in changing the en_CA or fr_CA locales to meet the
legal standard.

I have used the recommended, if woefully under-documented and Byzantinely
arcane, so-called standardized localedef program, whose syntax and usage are a
mute, and I mean MUTE -- why is there no man page for this? --, testament to
why *nix OSes are so unnecessarily hard to deal with.  Making end users
responsible for customizing their LOCALEs with an obscured<sic> cli utility
program because they are not just like 'everyone' else seems a little callous. 
Or perhaps painfully encoding the necessary strftime formatting characters into
UTF-8 code-points is something that every user of glibc should just get
comfortable with.

Is this what you really expect an end user to have to deal with just to set the
default date format on their systems?

LC_TIME
abday       "<U0053><U0075><U006E>";"<U004D><U006F><U006E>";/
            "<U0054><U0075><U0065>";"<U0057><U0065><U0064>";/
            "<U0054><U0068><U0075>";"<U0046><U0072><U0069>";/
            "<U0053><U0061><U0074>"
day         "<U0053><U0075><U006E><U0064><U0061><U0079>";/
            "<U004D><U006F><U006E><U0064><U0061><U0079>";/
            "<U0054><U0075><U0065><U0073><U0064><U0061><U0079>";/
            "<U0057><U0065><U0064><U006E><U0065><U0073><U0064><U0061><U0079>";/
            "<U0054><U0068><U0075><U0072><U0073><U0064><U0061><U0079>";/
            "<U0046><U0072><U0069><U0064><U0061><U0079>";/
            "<U0053><U0061><U0074><U0075><U0072><U0064><U0061><U0079>"
abmon       "<U004A><U0061><U006E>";"<U0046><U0065><U0062>";/
            "<U004D><U0061><U0072>";"<U0041><U0070><U0072>";/
            "<U004D><U0061><U0079>";"<U004A><U0075><U006E>";/
            "<U004A><U0075><U006C>";"<U0041><U0075><U0067>";/
            "<U0053><U0065><U0070>";"<U004F><U0063><U0074>";/
            "<U004E><U006F><U0076>";"<U0044><U0065><U0063>"
mon         "<U004A><U0061><U006E><U0075><U0061><U0072><U0079>";/
            "<U0046><U0065><U0062><U0072><U0075><U0061><U0072><U0079>";/
            "<U004D><U0061><U0072><U0063><U0068>";/
            "<U0041><U0070><U0072><U0069><U006C>";/
            "<U004D><U0061><U0079>";/
            "<U004A><U0075><U006E><U0065>";/
            "<U004A><U0075><U006C><U0079>";/
            "<U0041><U0075><U0067><U0075><U0073><U0074>";/
            "<U0053><U0065><U0070><U0074><U0065><U006D><U0062><U0065><U0072>";/
            "<U004F><U0063><U0074><U006F><U0062><U0065><U0072>";/
            "<U004E><U006F><U0076><U0065><U006D><U0062><U0065><U0072>";/
            "<U0044><U0065><U0063><U0065><U006D><U0062><U0065><U0072>"
d_t_fmt    
"<U0025><U0061><U0020><U0025><U0064><U0020><U0025><U0062><U0020><U0025><U0059><U0020><U0025><U0072><U0020><U0025><U005A>"

% Original date format (%m/%d/%Y)
%d_fmt       "<U0025><U0064><U002F><U0025><U006D><U002F><U0025><U0079>"

% Custom date format (%Y-%b-%d)
d_fmt       "<U0025><U0059><U002d><U0025><U0062><U002d><U0025><U0064>"

% Original time format %r (%H:%M:%S am|pm)
%t_fmt       "<U0025><U0072>"
%am_pm       "<U0041><U004D>";"<U0050><U004D>"
%t_fmt_ampm 
"<U0025><U0049><U003A><U0025><U004D><U003A><U0025><U0053><U0020><U0025><U0070>"

% 24 hour time %T (HH:mm:ss) no am/pm.
t_fmt   "<U0025><U0054>"
am_pm   "";""
t_fmt_ampm ""

date_fmt    "<U0025><U0061><U0020><U0025><U0062><U0020><U0025><U0065>/
<U0020><U0025><U0048><U003A><U0025><U004D><U003A><U0025><U0053><U0020>/
<U0025><U005A><U0020><U0025><U0059>"
END LC_TIME

And of course, all this encoding and editing is necessary before one even
begins to use the localedef program, assuming one can discover its existence
and uncover which files to edit.

Is their any reason why supplemental en_CA@ISO and fr_CA@ISO localdefs should
not be provided with glibc as an alternative for those of us 'no-ones' that
have a requirement to use ISO format dates and times and are not conversant
with hand encoding data into UTF-8?

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[Bug localedata/16668] ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

--- Comment #2 from James B. Byrne <byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca> ---
(In reply to Andreas Schwab from comment #1)
> $ date --iso-8601
> 2014-03-06

And?... how is this going to make this format detected in software that looks
at LANG to get its formatting information?  Is that not the POINT of locales? 
To avoid having to set a custom default is each and every program that needs a
format?

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[Bug localedata/16668] ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[schwab@linux-m68k.org]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

--- Comment #3 from Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> ---
I would not use that for my own purpose, even if my government required it.

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[Bug localedata/16668] ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[carlos at redhat dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

--- Comment #4 from Carlos O'Donell <carlos at redhat dot com> ---
(In reply to James B. Byrne from comment #0)
> This is an ongoing problem whose resolution seems stymied by an intransigent
> maintainer.  See bug: Bug 12731 and Bug 9842.

As a Canadian my opinion is that Ulrich is wrong. Most Canadians expect that
the date today should be written as 2014-02-06, and not anything else that is
used by American geographies.

> % Original date format (%m/%d/%Y)
> %d_fmt       "<U0025><U0064><U002F><U0025><U006D><U002F><U0025><U0079>"
> 
> % Custom date format (%Y-%b-%d)
> d_fmt       "<U0025><U0059><U002d><U0025><U0062><U002d><U0025><U0064>"

Thus this change is going to be OK and I will make this change immediately
after gathering consensus from the distribution maintainers on the development
list.

> % Original time format %r (%H:%M:%S am|pm)
> %t_fmt       "<U0025><U0072>"
> %am_pm       "<U0041><U004D>";"<U0050><U004D>"
> %t_fmt_ampm 
> "<U0025><U0049><U003A><U0025><U004D><U003A><U0025><U0053><U0020><U0025><U0070
> >"
> 
> % 24 hour time %T (HH:mm:ss) no am/pm.
> t_fmt   "<U0025><U0054>"
> am_pm   "";""
> t_fmt_ampm ""

This change is not OK. The average Canadian still expects 12 hour clocks with
am and pm. Therefore this change should not be made.

> Is their any reason why supplemental en_CA@ISO and fr_CA@ISO localdefs
> should not be provided with glibc as an alternative for those of us
> 'no-ones' that have a requirement to use ISO format dates and times and are
> not conversant with hand encoding data into UTF-8?

That is an excellent recommendation.

Would you accept an en_CA@ISO locale for official compliance with ISO8901?

That would not require any consensus from the distribution maintainers except
to ask that they acknowledge their support for the new locale.

Comments?

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[Bug localedata/16668] ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[carlos at redhat dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

Carlos O'Donell <carlos at redhat dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |carlos at redhat dot com

--- Comment #5 from Carlos O'Donell <carlos at redhat dot com> ---
(In reply to Andreas Schwab from comment #3)
> I would not use that for my own purpose, even if my government required it.

You are free to do what you wish with your own systems. Including creating your
own locales. That doesn't help the bug reporter resolver their problem.

Do you have any constructive feedback on this issue?

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[Bug localedata/16668] ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

--- Comment #6 from James B. Byrne <byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca> ---
(In reply to Carlos O'Donell from comment #4)
> (In reply to James B. Byrne from comment #0)
> > This is an ongoing problem whose resolution seems stymied by an intransigent
> > maintainer.  See bug: Bug 12731 and Bug 9842.
> 
> As a Canadian my opinion is that Ulrich is wrong. Most Canadians expect that
> the date today should be written as 2014-02-06, and not anything else that
> is used by American geographies.
>  
> > % Original date format (%m/%d/%Y)
> > %d_fmt       "<U0025><U0064><U002F><U0025><U006D><U002F><U0025><U0079>"
> > 
> > % Custom date format (%Y-%b-%d)
> > d_fmt       "<U0025><U0059><U002d><U0025><U0062><U002d><U0025><U0064>"
> 
> Thus this change is going to be OK and I will make this change immediately
> after gathering consensus from the distribution maintainers on the
> development list.
> 
> > % Original time format %r (%H:%M:%S am|pm)
> > %t_fmt       "<U0025><U0072>"
> > %am_pm       "<U0041><U004D>";"<U0050><U004D>"
> > %t_fmt_ampm 
> > "<U0025><U0049><U003A><U0025><U004D><U003A><U0025><U0053><U0020><U0025><U0070
> > >"
> > 
> > % 24 hour time %T (HH:mm:ss) no am/pm.
> > t_fmt   "<U0025><U0054>"
> > am_pm   "";""
> > t_fmt_ampm ""
> 
> This change is not OK. The average Canadian still expects 12 hour clocks
> with am and pm. Therefore this change should not be made.
> 
> > Is their any reason why supplemental en_CA@ISO and fr_CA@ISO localdefs
> > should not be provided with glibc as an alternative for those of us
> > 'no-ones' that have a requirement to use ISO format dates and times and are
> > not conversant with hand encoding data into UTF-8?
> 
> That is an excellent recommendation.
> 
> Would you accept an en_CA@ISO locale for official compliance with ISO8901?
> 
> That would not require any consensus from the distribution maintainers
> except to ask that they acknowledge their support for the new locale.
> 
> Comments?

Two additional xx_CA@ISO locales that implemented strict ISO8601 would be my
preferred option.  I completely support NOT changing the established default
behaviour of anything that causes inexplicable changes visible to end-users.

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[Bug localedata/16668] ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[schwab@linux-m68k.org]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

--- Comment #8 from Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> ---
That was as constructive as it can get.  The government has no influence on
daily life in most parts of your personal life, outside of busines.  Eg.
everyone is still using horse powers, even though every car dealer is required
to use units of kW.

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[Bug localedata/16668] ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

--- Comment #9 from James B. Byrne <byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca> ---
(In reply to Carlos O'Donell from comment #4)

> As a Canadian my opinion is that Ulrich is wrong. Most Canadians expect that
> the date today should be written as 2014-02-06, and not anything else that
> is used by American geographies.
>  
> > % Original date format (%m/%d/%Y)
> > %d_fmt       "<U0025><U0064><U002F><U0025><U006D><U002F><U0025><U0079>"
> > 
> > % Custom date format (%Y-%b-%d)
> > d_fmt       "<U0025><U0059><U002d><U0025><U0062><U002d><U0025><U0064>"
> 
> Thus this change is going to be OK and I will make this change immediately
> after gathering consensus from the distribution maintainers on the
> development list.

I think that you want %Y-%m-%d to be ISO compliant.  

d_fmt       "<U0025><U0059><U002D><U0025><U006D><U002D><U0025><U0064>"

I used the three letter short form month (%b) in the example.  Had one been
available then I would have simply used a straight ISO8601 localedef.  But as I
had to hand code it anyway I prefer to read the month directly on my desktop
displays and not have to map numbers to the names of the month in my head.  The
servers got the the strict version.

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[Bug localedata/16668] ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[schwab@linux-m68k.org]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

--- Comment #7 from Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> ---
That was as constructive as it can get.  The government has no influence on
daily life in most parts of your personal life, outside of busines.  Eg.
everyone is still using horse powers, even though every car dealer is required
to use units of kW.

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[Bug localedata/16668] ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[fweimer at redhat dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

Florian Weimer <fweimer at redhat dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |fweimer at redhat dot com
              Flags|                            |security-

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[Bug localedata/16668] ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[fweimer at redhat dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

Florian Weimer <fweimer at redhat dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|fweimer at redhat dot com          |

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[Bug localedata/16668] ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[mjc at avtechpulse dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

Michael Chudobiak <mjc at avtechpulse dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |mjc at avtechpulse dot com

--- Comment #10 from Michael Chudobiak <mjc at avtechpulse dot com> ---
The ISO short date format (%Y-%m-%d) is widely used in Canada.

It is on bank cheques, passports, driver licenses, and MS Windows.

It is specified by the Canadian Standards Association.

The existing d_fmt is ambiguous, confusing, and subject to misinterpretation.
It is also different from the French Canadian locale. I do not think that the
ISO date code is uncomfortable for anyone in Canada.

fr_CA uses the ISO code:
d_fmt   "<U0025><U0059><U002D><U0025><U006D><U002D><U0025><U0064>"

Please make d_fmt ISO-compliant, same as fr_CA.

The time codes are a different matter, common usage is different than the ISO
spec.

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[Bug localedata/16668] ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

--- Comment #11 from James B. Byrne <byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca> ---
If there are going to be xx_CA@ISO locales created then please make them
strictly ISO8601 compliant.  If additional locales are desired to account for
the use of twelve hour o'clock style times with a.m. and p.m. suffixes then
please make these available as additional derivative locales.  Our need is is
for strict ISO 8601 compliance.  Changing the date alone does not solve the
underlying problem.

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[Bug localedata/16668] ISO date time format localedef needed for en_CA

[vapier at gentoo dot org]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

Mike Frysinger <vapier at gentoo dot org> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |vapier at gentoo dot org
         Depends on|                            |9842


Referenced Bugs:

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=9842
[Bug 9842] Incorrect date format in en_CA.utf8 locale
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[Bug localedata/16668] en_CA: ISO date time format needed

[vapier at gentoo dot org]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

Mike Frysinger <vapier at gentoo dot org> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Summary|ISO date time format        |en_CA: ISO date time format
                   |localedef needed for en_CA  |needed

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[Bug localedata/16668] en_CA: ISO date time format needed

[vapier at gentoo dot org]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668
Bug 16668 depends on bug 9842, which changed state.

Bug 9842 Summary: en_CA: incorrect date format
https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=9842

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|REOPENED                    |RESOLVED
         Resolution|---                         |FIXED

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[Bug localedata/16668] en_CA: ISO date time format needed

[vapier at gentoo dot org]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

Mike Frysinger <vapier at gentoo dot org> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|NEW                         |RESOLVED
         Resolution|---                         |FIXED

--- Comment #12 from Mike Frysinger <vapier at gentoo dot org> ---
afaict, since bug 9842 has landed (using %Y-%m-%d), this is now a moot request

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[Bug localedata/16668] en_CA: ISO date time format needed

[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

James B. Byrne <byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|RESOLVED                    |REOPENED
         Resolution|FIXED                       |---

--- Comment #13 from James B. Byrne <byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca> ---
The patch referred to in #9842 only changes the date representation.  The
twenty-four hour clock is not handled.  So, a need for a fully ISO8901
compliant en_CA@ISO remains.

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[Bug localedata/16668] en_CA: ISO time format needed (24 hr clock)

[vapier at gentoo dot org]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

Mike Frysinger <vapier at gentoo dot org> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Summary|en_CA: ISO date time format |en_CA: ISO time format
                   |needed                      |needed (24 hr clock)

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[Bug localedata/16668] en_CA: ISO time format needed (24 hr clock)

[maiku.fabian at gmail dot com]

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16668

Mike FABIAN <maiku.fabian at gmail dot com> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |maiku.fabian at gmail dot com

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