Creating gcc-newbies mailing list

Creating gcc-newbies mailing list

[Diego Novillo]

I would like to propose the creation a new mailing list:
gcc-newbies@gcc.gnu.org.

The purpose of this list is to attract and help new GCC developers who
might feel lost and intimidated by the more arcane traffic at gcc and
gcc-patches.  In this list, no question regarding GCC development should
be considered offtopic nor treated with "RTFM" responses.

The idea is to give new developers a place where to hang out and ask all
those questions they feel may be too silly for the main list.  GCC has a
reputation for being a difficult environment to work in and new
developers are sometimes driven away by the terseness and/or perceived
hostility in the main lists.

The other goal of gcc-newbies is to provide a list of janitorial and
relatively simple projects that are always floating around and nobody
seems to get to.  The GCC wiki already has a list of such projects, some
of which should be a good start for anyone wanting to join.

Or maybe this is not a good idea, but I have certainly seen some folks
that complain about our less than friendly practices.


Thanks.

Re: Creating gcc-newbies mailing list

[Andrew Pinski]

On 7/26/07, Diego Novillo <dnovillo@google.com> wrote:
>
> I would like to propose the creation a new mailing list:
> gcc-newbies@gcc.gnu.org.
>
> The purpose of this list is to attract and help new GCC developers who
> might feel lost and intimidated by the more arcane traffic at gcc and
> gcc-patches.  In this list, no question regarding GCC development should
> be considered offtopic nor treated with "RTFM" responses.

I think this is the wrong aproach.  I have not seen any  "RTFM"
response for questions of developing of GCC on the gcc@ list.  I think
it is wrong to seerate newbies questions from normal development
questions because some of other developers might not want to join that
list just to answer questions and then learn that a question was being
discussed on that list already.

Also I think it was wrong to ask first on the overseers mailing list
to create this list before discussing the pros/cons about the list.

> Or maybe this is not a good idea, but I have certainly seen some folks
> that complain about our less than friendly practices.

Most of those are due to offtopic questions in the first place.  If
you look at the recent thread about libelf, well that was offtopic but
it became unfriendly really after a person continued the thread after
being asked once nicely to take the thread to the libelf mailing
lists.

Thanks,
Andrew Pinski

Re: Creating gcc-newbies mailing list

[Joe Buck]

On 7/26/07, Diego Novillo <dnovillo@google.com> wrote:
> >I would like to propose the creation a new mailing list:
> >gcc-newbies@gcc.gnu.org.
> >
> >The purpose of this list is to attract and help new GCC developers who
> >might feel lost and intimidated by the more arcane traffic at gcc and
> >gcc-patches.  In this list, no question regarding GCC development should
> >be considered offtopic nor treated with "RTFM" responses.

On Thu, Jul 26, 2007 at 02:05:50PM -0700, Andrew Pinski wrote:
> I think this is the wrong aproach.  I have not seen any  "RTFM"
> response for questions of developing of GCC on the gcc@ list.

Agreed.  Also, I think that the charter that Diego describes sounds a
lot like the charter for gcc-help.  And since everyone will read
"GCC development" as "development using GCC as the compiler" it would
quickly become a general Linux/BSD/Unix/GNU tools questions list.
What would go to gcc-help, and what to gcc-newbies?  I think it's
good enough what we have now.  Also, I don't see the point in tossing
junior or beginner gcc developers off of the main list.

I think that when we do steer someone to a different list, we could
take more care to be polite about it than we sometimes are.

Re: Creating gcc-newbies mailing list

[Ian Lance Taylor]

Joe Buck <Joe.Buck@synopsys.COM> writes:

> I think that when we do steer someone to a different list, we could
> take more care to be polite about it than we sometimes are.

I agree.  I also think we should all try harder to avoid flippant or
non-responsive replies to new developers.  I think it's important for
the long-term growth of gcc for us to encourage new developers.

The gcc-newbies proposal was Diego's idea, but it was, of course,
based on the kernelnewbies list (see http://kernelnewbies.org/).  Is
anybody here able to comment on whether kernelnewbies seems to be
useful or not?  Certainly the kernel community is much larger than the
gcc community.

Ian

Re: Creating gcc-newbies mailing list

[Jim Blandy]

On 26 Jul 2007 15:53:09 -0700, Ian Lance Taylor <iant@google.com> wrote:
> Joe Buck <Joe.Buck@synopsys.COM> writes:
>
> > I think that when we do steer someone to a different list, we could
> > take more care to be polite about it than we sometimes are.
>
> I agree.  I also think we should all try harder to avoid flippant or
> non-responsive replies to new developers.  I think it's important for
> the long-term growth of gcc for us to encourage new developers.

There were several presentations at OSCON that touched on these
issues: Brian Fitzpatrick and Ben Collins-Sussman's "poisonous people"
talk, while mostly about how to deal with difficult people, also
touched on how to establish an expectation of courtesy and respect.
The perceived leaders of the community need to make gentle but public
corrections when someone doesn't reply well, even if the person being
criticized is a leading contributor.  The goal is to have everyone
know the rules, and know that they apply to everyone.

The first and third talks are the ones relevant here:
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2007/view/e_spkr/2762

And Karl Fogel's book goes into exactly these issues in detail:
http://producingoss.com/en/setting-tone.html