[ECOS] ECOS - MIPS

[ECOS] ECOS - MIPS

[K. Sinan YILDIRIM]

hi!

I examined the MIPS platform ports for Ecos. I have some problems and i am a 
little bit confused.

As far as i see, we cannot configure or compile ecos without selecting a 
target platform. One of the Mips targets i examined was Atlas board. when i 
configure ecos with configtool, it generates a buildtree with the atlas board 
spesific headers. 

Is there a possible way to configure ecos without using a target platform ? or 
jusy empty macros or platform specific functions? I want to have a clean and 
a MIPS ported code and then fill these functions according to my board. Is 
there a way to do this ?  I dont want to inspect atlas board specific codes 
or compile atlas platform files.

please help me... i really need help!


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Re: [ECOS] ECOS - MIPS

[Andrew Lunn]

On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 04:38:23PM +0300, K. Sinan YILDIRIM wrote:
> hi!
> 
> I examined the MIPS platform ports for Ecos. I have some problems and i am a 
> little bit confused.
> 

> As far as i see, we cannot configure or compile ecos without
> selecting a target platform. One of the Mips targets i examined was
> Atlas board. when i configure ecos with configtool, it generates a
> buildtree with the atlas board spesific headers.
> 
> Is there a possible way to configure ecos without using a target
> platform ? or jusy empty macros or platform specific functions? I
> want to have a clean and a MIPS ported code and then fill these
> functions according to my board. Is there a way to do this ?  I dont
> want to inspect atlas board specific codes or compile atlas platform
> files.

The normal way of doing a port is to take an existing port which is
the most similar and modify it to work for your target. So if you
board is like the atlas, then use the atlas for a starting point. If
its more like a tx49 then use the tx49 as a starting point. 

In the repository you need to copy the HAL files from you choosen
starting target to a directory for your target. You then need to start
making the modifications, and add the necassary entries in the
packages/ecos.db file.

There is a documentation about doing a port. See

http://ecos.sourceware.org/docs-latest/ref/hal-porting-guide.html

        Andrew


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[ECOS] ECOS - MIPS

[Richard Forrest]

K. Sinan YILDIRIM

I am new to eCos and embedded programming and still have lots to learn  
about both. Probably like yourself I am experienced in *nix and Windows  
programming with boundless resources. My initial impressions were that the  
coding style in eCos was rather old fashioned. We are probably both used  
to the amazing things that can be done with STL, boost, template  
metaprogramming etc. However I realise that many of these libraries and  
techniques are not appropriate for embedded programming. On the other hand  
it is possible that some modern C++ techniques could be useful in this  
context. Currently I do not have enough experience of embedded programming  
to give an opinion.

Could you provide an example of how some part of eCos could be improved  
using a specific design pattern. This could form the basis of a more  
focused discussion of the benefits of what you are proposing. If your  
ideas are practical and would genuinely make eCos more easily configured  
then I am certain that the eCos maintainers would be very happy to help  
you incorporate them.

Richard Forrest





On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:25:41 +0300, K. Sinan YILDIRIM <sinany@beko.com.tr>  
wrote:

> there are patterns for limited memory systems and real time systems.  
> there are
> papers, books... you can find them and read them.
>
> patterns doesnt always mean run-time configurability. what u can do with
> compile time can also be done with patterns.
>
> patterns means reusability of the design and architecture. if u want your
> opearting system to fullfill future requests, i must strongly suggest to  
> use
> them.the things that eCos uses is traditional C programming way of doing
> reusability and maintainability.modern operating systems must modern  
> software
> ideas and architecture. Pattern oriented architecture is not a new idea  
> but
> none of the embedded operating systems uses them.
>
> Java classes are dynamically loaded. Java will be a future for embedded
> systems. Many companies started to use java. it has many benefits. If
> performance problems are solved, Java will be a revolution for embedded
> systems.
>
> i am going to write an operating system with patterns and reusable
> architecture. i will share it with you in the future when i finish.




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Re: [ECOS] ECOS - MIPS

[K. Sinan YILDIRIM]

there are patterns for limited memory systems and real time systems. there are 
papers, books... you can find them and read them.

patterns doesnt always mean run-time configurability. what u can do with 
compile time can also be done with patterns. 

patterns means reusability of the design and architecture. if u want your 
opearting system to fullfill future requests, i must strongly suggest to use 
them.the things that eCos uses is traditional C programming way of doing 
reusability and maintainability.modern operating systems must modern software 
ideas and architecture. Pattern oriented architecture is not a new idea but 
none of the embedded operating systems uses them.

Java classes are dynamically loaded. Java will be a future for embedded 
systems. Many companies started to use java. it has many benefits. If 
performance problems are solved, Java will be a revolution for embedded 
systems. 

i am going to write an operating system with patterns and reusable 
architecture. i will share it with you in the future when i finish.

Perşembe 23 Haziran 2005 12:02 ös tarihinde, Andrew Lunn şunları yazmıştı: 
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 11:04:32AM +0300, K. Sinan YILDIRIM wrote:
> >  i wont make it configurable with make files. i would use object oriented
> >  configurabilitiy.  just inspect Java.
>
> So you are talking about using run time configurability?
>
> Does this mean that every application must contain all of eCos? Java
> works this way as far as i know. You must have all of Java available
> because you never know what parts of it the application may use. Does
> such a system make sense with a deeply embedded system where i have
> limited memory and no secondary storage?
>
> > you register classes, you program for interfaces, you use abstract
> > classes.
> >
> > just inspect bridge or adapter pattern. you will understand me.
>
> Actually, i don't. I've never used patterns as such. Its a relatively
> new name to what i suspect are old ideas. So please could you explain
> these patterns and how they are appropriate to extreamly small memory
> systems?
>
>         Thanks
>                 Andrew


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Re: [ECOS] ECOS - MIPS

[Andrew Lunn]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 11:04:32AM +0300, K. Sinan YILDIRIM wrote:
>  i wont make it configurable with make files. i would use object oriented
>  configurabilitiy.  just inspect Java.

So you are talking about using run time configurability? 

Does this mean that every application must contain all of eCos? Java
works this way as far as i know. You must have all of Java available
because you never know what parts of it the application may use. Does
such a system make sense with a deeply embedded system where i have
limited memory and no secondary storage?
 
> you register classes, you program for interfaces, you use abstract classes.
> 
> just inspect bridge or adapter pattern. you will understand me.

Actually, i don't. I've never used patterns as such. Its a relatively
new name to what i suspect are old ideas. So please could you explain
these patterns and how they are appropriate to extreamly small memory
systems?

        Thanks
                Andrew

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Re: [ECOS] ECOS - MIPS

[Jerome Souquieres]

K. Sinan YILDIRIM wrote:

> i wont make it configurable with make files. i would use object oriented
> configurabilitiy.  just inspect Java.
>
> you register classes, you program for interfaces, you use abstract 
> classes.
>
> just inspect bridge or adapter pattern. you will understand me.
>
>  
>

 Well, I'm afraid eCos is by philosophy and design NOT the right OS for 
this kind of run-time configurability. eCos is designed for embedded 
systems where the hardware is well known (you don't keep adding 
expansion boards from no-name taiwanese manufacturers), where run-time 
resources (memory, cpu) are scarce. In this context, compile-time 
configurabibity through #ifdefs and makefiles is a must.

 I'm using eCos myself on a MIPS target (IDT32334) and have been through 
the following steps:
- find an existing HAL which was close to my actual hardware (here: 
idt79s334a) and modify it to match my hardware exactly.
- build redboot with this HAL to start my system
- carefully select packages and build an eCos tailored for my needs.

 Most OS for embedded systems I know use this philosophy (create a 
BSP/HAL, build the OS from selected packages using some kind of 
configurator). eCos "just" pushes one step further the configurability.  
Maybe you should look for an OS not dedicated to embedded systems if 
this is not the way you intend to work and you have plenty of RAM. Maybe 
some flavor of Linux ?



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Re: [ECOS] ECOS - MIPS

[K. Sinan YILDIRIM]

 i wont make it configurable with make files. i would use object oriented
 configurabilitiy.  just inspect Java.

you register classes, you program for interfaces, you use abstract classes.

just inspect bridge or adapter pattern. you will understand me.



> Perşembe 23 Haziran 2005 10:02 öö tarihinde, Andrew Lunn şunları yazmıştı:
> > On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 09:27:32AM +0300, K. Sinan YILDIRIM wrote:
> > > People may have positive and negative comments about a SW product. Does
> > > this group for only positive ones ? Or only positive questions ?
> > >
> > > I have been writing SW for about 10 years. I have just examined eCOS
> > > and found that it is configurable on some way and unconfigurable ( hard
> > > to reconfigure ) on some way. May be it is much more configurable than
> > > the existing ones but not a super really configurable OS.
> > >
> > > I am the user. This is a user point of view . Having a seperate HAL
> > > layer or a structured file tree doesnt make an operating system really
> > > configurable. Configurability means to change the operating system
> > > according to your needs in a quick way : not being able to change it in
> > > a month...
> > >
> > > configurable modern SW is done with SW patterns. Architectural and
> > > Design patterns makes SW configurable, easy to change, etc... Embedded
> > > SW needs good architectural design with really reusable architectural
> > > and design patterns. What makes JAVA popular is these points. It is a
> > > programming framework that fullfills these points.
> > >
> > > eCOS is  not a really framework. When you read the documentation, it
> > > seems to be an OS framework but indeed it doesn't.
> > >
> > > What i try to mean is we must make it better in order to make it usable
> > > in the future.
> >
> > Could you give some examples of what you would change?
> >
> >         Thanks
> >                 Andrew


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Re: [ECOS] ECOS - MIPS

[Andrew Lunn]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 09:27:32AM +0300, K. Sinan YILDIRIM wrote:
> People may have positive and negative comments about a SW product. Does this 
> group for only positive ones ? Or only positive questions ? 
> 
> I have been writing SW for about 10 years. I have just examined eCOS and found 
> that it is configurable on some way and unconfigurable ( hard to reconfigure 
> ) on some way. May be it is much more configurable than the existing ones but 
> not a super really configurable OS. 
> 
> I am the user. This is a user point of view . Having a seperate HAL layer or a 
> structured file tree doesnt make an operating system really configurable. 
> Configurability means to change the operating system according to your needs 
> in a quick way : not being able to change it in a month... 
> 
> configurable modern SW is done with SW patterns. Architectural and Design 
> patterns makes SW configurable, easy to change, etc... Embedded SW needs good 
> architectural design with really reusable architectural and design patterns. 
> What makes JAVA popular is these points. It is a programming framework that 
> fullfills these points.
> 
> eCOS is  not a really framework. When you read the documentation, it seems to 
> be an OS framework but indeed it doesn't. 
> 
> What i try to mean is we must make it better in order to make it usable in the 
> future. 

Could you give some examples of what you would change?

        Thanks
                Andrew

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Re: [ECOS] ECOS - MIPS

[K. Sinan YILDIRIM]

People may have positive and negative comments about a SW product. Does this 
group for only positive ones ? Or only positive questions ? 

I have been writing SW for about 10 years. I have just examined eCOS and found 
that it is configurable on some way and unconfigurable ( hard to reconfigure 
) on some way. May be it is much more configurable than the existing ones but 
not a super really configurable OS. 

I am the user. This is a user point of view . Having a seperate HAL layer or a 
structured file tree doesnt make an operating system really configurable. 
Configurability means to change the operating system according to your needs 
in a quick way : not being able to change it in a month... 

configurable modern SW is done with SW patterns. Architectural and Design 
patterns makes SW configurable, easy to change, etc... Embedded SW needs good 
architectural design with really reusable architectural and design patterns. 
What makes JAVA popular is these points. It is a programming framework that 
fullfills these points.

eCOS is  not a really framework. When you read the documentation, it seems to 
be an OS framework but indeed it doesn't. 

What i try to mean is we must make it better in order to make it usable in the 
future. 


Çarşamba 22 Haziran 2005 09:28 ös tarihinde, L D şunları yazmıştı: 
> --- "K. Sinan YILDIRIM" <sinany@beko.com.tr> wrote:
> > i dont understand why ecos restricts its users with
> > a configtool and
>
>   Have you actually used it the way it was meant to be
> used? You have to learn the _ecos_ way of doing
> things, there is no shortcuts (unless you pay someone
> [not me] to do the work) !.
>
> > templates. i want a clean makefile and module
> > structure.
>
>   What is so unclean about eCos? eCos is more than a
> collection of .cxx files held together by makefiles.
> It is a collection of reconfigurable reusable
> components and this is where the cdl (component
> definition language) comes in. Take a look at his link
> http://www.embedded.com/story/OEG20011220S0059
>   its few years old but it is also nice and _short_.
>
> > not structuring with
> > a config tool or hardware environment. it is really
> > diffucult to add or
> > remove a new file. also many files are coupled each
> > other.
>
>   You add and remove files by adding the filename to
> the a cdl file. That is not harder than editing a
> makefile.
>
> > i have a board that implements mips core and
> > different to atlas board. there
> > must be a clean version of ecos that includes pure
> > mips dependencies. atlas
>
>   There is no such thing as "pure" mips. Why don't you
>  just give us more details about your board. It is
> much more productive than making negative inaccurate
> comments about eCos. This is how it normally works
> around here. You ask a question, give the relevant
> details and hope that someone can help.
>
> > dependencies makes people to change their OS
> > choice...
> >
> > does anyone think that it is really configurable ?
>
>   Hello! Its called configurable for a good reason!


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Re: [ECOS] ECOS - MIPS

[L D]

--- "K. Sinan YILDIRIM" <sinany@beko.com.tr> wrote:

> i dont understand why ecos restricts its users with
> a configtool and 

  Have you actually used it the way it was meant to be
used? You have to learn the _ecos_ way of doing
things, there is no shortcuts (unless you pay someone
[not me] to do the work) !.

> templates. i want a clean makefile and module
> structure. 

  What is so unclean about eCos? eCos is more than a
collection of .cxx files held together by makefiles.
It is a collection of reconfigurable reusable
components and this is where the cdl (component
definition language) comes in. Take a look at his link
http://www.embedded.com/story/OEG20011220S0059
  its few years old but it is also nice and _short_. 
  
> not structuring with 
> a config tool or hardware environment. it is really
> diffucult to add or 
> remove a new file. also many files are coupled each
> other. 

  You add and remove files by adding the filename to
the a cdl file. That is not harder than editing a
makefile. 

> 
> i have a board that implements mips core and
> different to atlas board. there 
> must be a clean version of ecos that includes pure
> mips dependencies. atlas 

  There is no such thing as "pure" mips. Why don't you
 just give us more details about your board. It is
much more productive than making negative inaccurate
comments about eCos. This is how it normally works
around here. You ask a question, give the relevant
details and hope that someone can help. 

> dependencies makes people to change their OS
> choice...
> 
> does anyone think that it is really configurable ? 

  Hello! Its called configurable for a good reason!





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Re: [ECOS] ECOS - MIPS

[Fabian Scheler]

Hi,

> i dont understand why ecos restricts its users with a configtool and
> templates. i want a clean makefile and module structure. not structuring with
> a config tool or hardware environment. it is really diffucult to add or
> remove a new file. also many files are coupled each other.

eCos is, compared to other embedded OS, a really highly configurable
OS, the configtool and templates are provided to support the user when
selecting an appropriate set of options that fulfill his needs. I
don't believe you want to manage the selction of the numerous features
on your own. In my opinion eCos is not really useable without the
configtool

> i have a board that implements mips core and different to atlas board. there
> must be a clean version of ecos that includes pure mips dependencies. atlas
> dependencies makes people to change their OS choice...

well, eCos does (and you can find them in packages/hal/mips/arch I
think), the other directories you can see are containing
board-specific stuff). Well, and if eCos is not available for the
special board you use, you have to adopt an existing board package,
and that's the case with every embedded OS, because different boards
have different features and thus they need a (at least partly)
specific HAL.

Ciao, Fabian

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Re: [ECOS] ECOS - MIPS

[K. Sinan YILDIRIM]

i dont understand why ecos restricts its users with a configtool and 
templates. i want a clean makefile and module structure. not structuring with 
a config tool or hardware environment. it is really diffucult to add or 
remove a new file. also many files are coupled each other. 

i have a board that implements mips core and different to atlas board. there 
must be a clean version of ecos that includes pure mips dependencies. atlas 
dependencies makes people to change their OS choice...

does anyone think that it is really configurable ? i dont think so...

OS must fit the environment, environment must not. 

Salı 21 Haziran 2005 05:40 ös tarihinde, rramesh@connextechnology.com şunları 
yazmıştı: 
> I attempted the same a couple of months ago and gave up. Looks like we need
> to have extensive changes to eCos before we can attempt that. The possible
> route to go is to use a Simulator. If you look in the source directories,
> there is a simulator which fakes the board related initializations, drivers
> etc. Attempt that. If I recall right, I could not attempt to compile it
> successfully. I posted a few messages here, did not get any response and I
> had to change the course of RTOS selection for my project. Hope this helps.
> If you find any help in this regard - in private- would you be kind enough
> to inform me as well? Thanks and regards
> Ramesh
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: K. Sinan YILDIRIM [mailto:sinany@beko.com.tr]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 01:38 PM
> > To: ecos-discuss@sources.redhat.com
> > Subject: [ECOS] ECOS - MIPS
> >
> > hi!
> >
> > I examined the MIPS platform ports for Ecos. I have some problems and i
> > am a little bit confused.
> >
> > As far as i see, we cannot configure or compile ecos without selecting a
> > target platform. One of the Mips targets i examined was Atlas board. when
> > i configure ecos with configtool, it generates a buildtree with the atlas
> > board spesific headers.
> >
> > Is there a possible way to configure ecos without using a target platform
> > ? or jusy empty macros or platform specific functions? I want to have a
> > clean and a MIPS ported code and then fill these functions according to
> > my board. Is there a way to do this ?  I dont want to inspect atlas board
> > specific codes or compile atlas platform files.
> >
> > please help me... i really need help!
> >
> >
> > --
> > Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos
> > and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss


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