* RE: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? @ 2007-12-13 9:46 Loginov Alexander 2007-12-13 9:50 ` Loginov Alexander ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Loginov Alexander @ 2007-12-13 9:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Grant Edwards, ecos-discuss, ecos-discuss ......... > Because that's the last time somebody paid developers to do the > work involved in a public "release". Thanks for your comments. Now a bit clearer why the releases are not available. But it is quite strange: there is eCosCentric but no releases. Normally the commercial companies that are at the back of the open-source project, do this job. Check RTEMS for example. ........ > If you don't want to hear answers, then don't ask questions. Irrelevant note. Not all the phrases are to be understood directly. There are idioms in each language. That was one of them. Don't take it out of the context. In that context it meant: "I don't think so" if you wish ........ > Utter bullshit. They do have bugs, but so do releases. Neither > is "supposed to have bugs". My mistake, I meant to say "expected to have bugs". Here is the standard note from a standard open-source project CVS tree: "...the CVS code is always moving in features and stability. While very attempt is made to keep the CVS head working on all targets, but there are no any guarantees". ....... > Bah. Nobody intentionally checks in bugs. Depends. In the area of safety-critical systems, it is a standard debugging methodology: you intentionally introduce bugs in the systems to see how it can recover itself . ... ... > There are no "stable releases" of Linux any more. Active > development is being done in the "stable" tree. There are no > more stable and development versions of Linux like there used > to be. Linux itself - yes. But not its distros. The new releases are normally produced every 3-6 months. ... ... > On the contrary, we are all from the world of commercial > products development. That's what eCos is used for: developing > commercial products. I've been using eCos to develop > commercial products for 7+ years, and the lack of "releases" > hasn't been even the least bit of a problem. That is your personal experience and your personal area of expertise in particular commercial product area. Products that are expected to have high reliability standards are rarely developed from CVS software snapshots. > If you feel you're not capable of working from a CVS repository > and really want a "released" version, then that's what eCosPro > is: http://www.ecoscentric.com/ecos/ecospro.shtml Thanks. I have already checked it. Definitely, if we stick to eCos we will buy the support from eCosCentric. > Perhaps one of those RTOSes will meet your privilege management > requirement better than eCos. Unfortunately, they are either too expensive (the royalty fees would cost us thousand or even millions of dollars) and most of them normally don't provide source code. If they do provide it, then it costs another hundreds of thousands. By the way, do you now any more-or-less free RTOS that provides support for privilege levels and process protection? Thanks. Best, Alex -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* RE: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-13 9:46 [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? Loginov Alexander @ 2007-12-13 9:50 ` Loginov Alexander 2007-12-13 15:15 ` Grant Edwards ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Loginov Alexander @ 2007-12-13 9:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Grant Edwards, ecos-discuss, ecos-discuss ......... > Because that's the last time somebody paid developers to do the > work involved in a public "release". Thanks for your comments. Now a bit clearer why the releases are not available. But it is quite strange: there is eCosCentric but no releases. Normally the commercial companies that are at the back of the open-source project, do this job. Check RTEMS for example. ........ > If you don't want to hear answers, then don't ask questions. Irrelevant note. Not all the phrases are to be understood directly. There are idioms in each language. That was one of them. Don't take it out of the context. In that context it meant: "I don't think so" if you wish ........ > Utter bullshit. They do have bugs, but so do releases. Neither > is "supposed to have bugs". My mistake, I meant to say "expected to have bugs". Here is the standard note from a standard open-source project CVS tree: "...the CVS code is always moving in features and stability. While very attempt is made to keep the CVS head working on all targets, but there are no any guarantees". ....... > Bah. Nobody intentionally checks in bugs. Depends. In the area of safety-critical systems, it is a standard debugging methodology: you intentionally introduce bugs in the systems to see how it can recover itself . ... ... > There are no "stable releases" of Linux any more. Active > development is being done in the "stable" tree. There are no > more stable and development versions of Linux like there used > to be. Linux itself - yes. But not its distros. The new releases are normally produced every 3-6 months. ... ... > On the contrary, we are all from the world of commercial > products development. That's what eCos is used for: developing > commercial products. I've been using eCos to develop > commercial products for 7+ years, and the lack of "releases" > hasn't been even the least bit of a problem. That is your personal experience and your personal area of expertise in particular commercial product area. Products that are expected to have high reliability standards are rarely developed from CVS software snapshots. > If you feel you're not capable of working from a CVS repository > and really want a "released" version, then that's what eCosPro > is: http://www.ecoscentric.com/ecos/ecospro.shtml Thanks. I have already checked it. Definitely, if we stick to eCos we will buy the support from eCosCentric. > Perhaps one of those RTOSes will meet your privilege management > requirement better than eCos. Unfortunately, they are either too expensive (the royalty fees would cost us thousand or even millions of dollars) and most of them normally don't provide source code. If they do provide it, then it costs another hundreds of thousands. By the way, do you now any more-or-less free RTOS that provides support for privilege levels and process protection? Thanks. Best, Alex -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-13 9:46 [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? Loginov Alexander 2007-12-13 9:50 ` Loginov Alexander @ 2007-12-13 15:15 ` Grant Edwards 2007-12-13 15:43 ` Chris Zimman 2007-12-13 20:06 ` Mike Arthur 2007-12-14 13:47 ` Ilija Koco 3 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Grant Edwards @ 2007-12-13 15:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ecos-discuss On 2007-12-13, Loginov Alexander <aloginov@asmpt.com> wrote: > ......... >> Because that's the last time somebody paid developers to do the >> work involved in a public "release". > > Thanks for your comments. Now a bit clearer why the releases > are not available. But it is quite strange: there is > eCosCentric but no releases. There are releases. That's what eCosPro is. > Normally the commercial companies that are at the back of the > open-source project, do this job. Check RTEMS for example. No thanks, I'm not going to check RTEMS. > ........ >> If you don't want to hear answers, then don't ask questions. > > Irrelevant note. Not all the phrases are to be understood > directly. There are idioms in each language. That was one of > them. Don't take it out of the context. In that context it > meant: "I don't think so" if you wish > > ........ >> Utter bullshit. They do have bugs, but so do releases. Neither >> is "supposed to have bugs". > > My mistake, I meant to say "expected to have bugs". Here is > the standard note from a standard open-source project CVS > tree: "...the CVS code is always moving in features and > stability. While very attempt is made to keep the CVS head > working on all targets, but there are no any guarantees". I wasn't aware that there was a standard for open-source projects. > ....... >> Bah. Nobody intentionally checks in bugs. > > Depends. In the area of safety-critical systems, it is a > standard debugging methodology: you intentionally introduce > bugs in the systems to see how it can recover itself . You don't check them into CVS. > ... ... >> There are no "stable releases" of Linux any more. Active >> development is being done in the "stable" tree. There are no >> more stable and development versions of Linux like there used >> to be. > > Linux itself - yes. But not its distros. The new releases are normally > produced every 3-6 months. If you want a stable release of eCos then use eCosPro and stop whinging at us. > ... ... >> On the contrary, we are all from the world of commercial >> products development. That's what eCos is used for: developing >> commercial products. I've been using eCos to develop >> commercial products for 7+ years, and the lack of "releases" >> hasn't been even the least bit of a problem. > > That is your personal experience and your personal area of > expertise in particular commercial product area. Products that > are expected to have high reliability standards are rarely > developed from CVS software snapshots. Products that have high reliability standards do their own testing and "releasing". They don't depend on the "releases" of open-source packages to be bug-free. >> If you feel you're not capable of working from a CVS repository >> and really want a "released" version, then that's what eCosPro >> is: http://www.ecoscentric.com/ecos/ecospro.shtml > > Thanks. I have already checked it. Definitely, if we stick to eCos we > will buy the support from eCosCentric. I'm glad to hear it. >> Perhaps one of those RTOSes will meet your privilege >> management requirement better than eCos. > > Unfortunately, they are either too expensive (the royalty fees > would cost us thousand or even millions of dollars) and most > of them normally don't provide source code. If they do provide > it, then it costs another hundreds of thousands. Releases cost money. > By the way, do you now any more-or-less free RTOS that > provides support for privilege levels and process protection? Nope, I can't afford the dollars or watts for processors that have those sorts of features. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! I'm a fuschia bowling at ball somewhere in Brittany visi.com -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* RE: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-13 15:15 ` Grant Edwards @ 2007-12-13 15:43 ` Chris Zimman 2007-12-13 17:40 ` Grant Edwards 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Chris Zimman @ 2007-12-13 15:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ecos-discuss Hi Alex, I'm sorry for the rather caustic response you've received from this mailing list. If you are interested in eCos for your application, it sounds as though your best bet would be to get a dialogue going with eCosCentric. I'm not personally aware of it being used in safety critical applications, although I don't see any inherent reason that it couldn't (possibly with some work) get that certification. At this time, there isn't really a formalized release process for the CVS version of eCos. You will get this from eCosCentric though. They provide tested and supported releases. This is a service that you pay for though. I would expect that it will be difficult to find an open source OS that's fully supported and tested for little to no money as the developers need to earn a living. Not all of the commercial RTOS's have their source as unavailable or have heinous license fees (Nucleus for example). By nature, most have to provide some level of source to support a wide variety of platforms. The fees for commercial RTOS licensing aren't typically that terrible, especially if the volumes are high. It would be nice to have check pointed releases of eCos, but without volunteers to do the testing, etc. it would be rather difficult. The community is much smaller in comparison to the Linux kernel. --Chris -----Original Message----- From: ecos-discuss-owner@ecos.sourceware.org [mailto:ecos-discuss-owner@ecos.sourceware.org] On Behalf Of Grant Edwards Sent: 13 December 2007 14:33 To: ecos-discuss@sources.redhat.com Subject: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? On 2007-12-13, Loginov Alexander <aloginov@asmpt.com> wrote: > ......... >> Because that's the last time somebody paid developers to do the >> work involved in a public "release". > > Thanks for your comments. Now a bit clearer why the releases > are not available. But it is quite strange: there is > eCosCentric but no releases. There are releases. That's what eCosPro is. > Normally the commercial companies that are at the back of the > open-source project, do this job. Check RTEMS for example. No thanks, I'm not going to check RTEMS. > ........ >> If you don't want to hear answers, then don't ask questions. > > Irrelevant note. Not all the phrases are to be understood > directly. There are idioms in each language. That was one of > them. Don't take it out of the context. In that context it > meant: "I don't think so" if you wish > > ........ >> Utter bullshit. They do have bugs, but so do releases. Neither >> is "supposed to have bugs". > > My mistake, I meant to say "expected to have bugs". Here is > the standard note from a standard open-source project CVS > tree: "...the CVS code is always moving in features and > stability. While very attempt is made to keep the CVS head > working on all targets, but there are no any guarantees". I wasn't aware that there was a standard for open-source projects. > ....... >> Bah. Nobody intentionally checks in bugs. > > Depends. In the area of safety-critical systems, it is a > standard debugging methodology: you intentionally introduce > bugs in the systems to see how it can recover itself . You don't check them into CVS. > ... ... >> There are no "stable releases" of Linux any more. Active >> development is being done in the "stable" tree. There are no >> more stable and development versions of Linux like there used >> to be. > > Linux itself - yes. But not its distros. The new releases are normally > produced every 3-6 months. If you want a stable release of eCos then use eCosPro and stop whinging at us. > ... ... >> On the contrary, we are all from the world of commercial >> products development. That's what eCos is used for: developing >> commercial products. I've been using eCos to develop >> commercial products for 7+ years, and the lack of "releases" >> hasn't been even the least bit of a problem. > > That is your personal experience and your personal area of > expertise in particular commercial product area. Products that > are expected to have high reliability standards are rarely > developed from CVS software snapshots. Products that have high reliability standards do their own testing and "releasing". They don't depend on the "releases" of open-source packages to be bug-free. >> If you feel you're not capable of working from a CVS repository >> and really want a "released" version, then that's what eCosPro >> is: http://www.ecoscentric.com/ecos/ecospro.shtml > > Thanks. I have already checked it. Definitely, if we stick to eCos we > will buy the support from eCosCentric. I'm glad to hear it. >> Perhaps one of those RTOSes will meet your privilege >> management requirement better than eCos. > > Unfortunately, they are either too expensive (the royalty fees > would cost us thousand or even millions of dollars) and most > of them normally don't provide source code. If they do provide > it, then it costs another hundreds of thousands. Releases cost money. > By the way, do you now any more-or-less free RTOS that > provides support for privilege levels and process protection? Nope, I can't afford the dollars or watts for processors that have those sorts of features. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! I'm a fuschia bowling at ball somewhere in Brittany visi.com -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-13 15:43 ` Chris Zimman @ 2007-12-13 17:40 ` Grant Edwards 2007-12-14 0:48 ` Bob Koninckx 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Grant Edwards @ 2007-12-13 17:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ecos-discuss On 2007-12-13, Chris Zimman <czimman@bloomberg.com> wrote: > I'm sorry for the rather caustic response you've received from > this mailing list. The man suggested that we intentionally put bugs into the eCos CVS tree. That's just plain insulting. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! Where's the Coke at machine? Tell me a joke!! visi.com -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-13 17:40 ` Grant Edwards @ 2007-12-14 0:48 ` Bob Koninckx 2007-12-14 1:41 ` Grant Edwards 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Bob Koninckx @ 2007-12-14 0:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Grant Edwards; +Cc: ecos-discuss On Thu, 2007-12-13 at 15:32 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote: > On 2007-12-13, Chris Zimman <czimman@bloomberg.com> wrote: > > > I'm sorry for the rather caustic response you've received from > > this mailing list. > > The man suggested that we intentionally put bugs into the eCos > CVS tree. That's just plain insulting. > Wow, I usually don't engage in flame wars, but after some of these reactions ... Anyway, I contributed a lot to eCos in the past (agreed, certainly not as much as Grant) and did not feel offended in any way. OTOH, some of the reactions to some honest question were, IMHO, plain insulting without any a reason. If this is the way the eCos community welcomes newcomers nowadays, I don't think the community will grow much in the near future. There is always the option of just not reacting if you read something you don like (which is exactly what I am going to do from now on :-). Bob -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-14 0:48 ` Bob Koninckx @ 2007-12-14 1:41 ` Grant Edwards 2007-12-14 6:38 ` Frank Pagliughi 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Grant Edwards @ 2007-12-14 1:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ecos-discuss On 2007-12-13, Bob Koninckx <bob.koninckx@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, 2007-12-13 at 15:32 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote: >> On 2007-12-13, Chris Zimman <czimman@bloomberg.com> wrote: >> >> > I'm sorry for the rather caustic response you've received from >> > this mailing list. >> >> The man suggested that we intentionally put bugs into the eCos >> CVS tree. That's just plain insulting. > > Wow, I usually don't engage in flame wars, but after some of > these reactions ... Anyway, I contributed a lot to eCos in the > past (agreed, certainly not as much as Grant) and did not feel > offended in any way. Perhaps I overreacted, but I find it pretty irritating when people who've obviosly put zero effort into investigating the project (let alone contributing anything) show up out of the blue demanding to know why an open-source project isn't being run the way they want it to be run. Then when it's explained why things are run the way they are they start making claims that what we're doing isn't good enough and we're not professionals and have no experience with commercial product development. I probably should have just ignored him... -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! Send your questions to at ``ASK ZIPPY'', Box 40474, visi.com San Francisco, CA 94140, USA -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-14 1:41 ` Grant Edwards @ 2007-12-14 6:38 ` Frank Pagliughi 2007-12-14 11:15 ` Chris Zimman 2007-12-14 16:34 ` Brian Austin 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Frank Pagliughi @ 2007-12-14 6:38 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ecos-discuss As a embedded-systems consultant, I've been using eCos for several years, and I love it. I've used it for my own development - test apps and demos - but I have never been able to sell a single customer on using the OS for a project. When a potential customer (usually a manager type) has a look, those things do stand out: it *looks* old and out of date, on first pass. Most don't seem to get past poking around the web page. For more technically sophisticated customers, when 2.0 first appeared, it literally took ten minutes to download the code, and get a sample app running on an old PC. Now when I tell a customer to take it for a test drive, the setup gets involved, with pieces from several places. I try to tell them to look closer, but by that time, they've already chosen something else. From my experience, the current state of the project doesn't seem to help sell it. Frank -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* RE: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-14 6:38 ` Frank Pagliughi @ 2007-12-14 11:15 ` Chris Zimman 2007-12-14 11:20 ` Andrew Lunn 2007-12-14 16:34 ` Brian Austin 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Chris Zimman @ 2007-12-14 11:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Frank Pagliughi; +Cc: ecos-discuss Frank, I think you raise a valid point here. Perhaps it would be time to consider creating a more up to date release. Rather frequently on the list, someone will say something to the effect of 'I've downloaded/am using eCos 2.0 ...blah blah...it seems very out of date...' The traditional response has been 'Go pull the latest from CVS'. Thoughts anyone? --Chris -----Original Message----- From: ecos-discuss-owner@ecos.sourceware.org [mailto:ecos-discuss-owner@ecos.sourceware.org] On Behalf Of Frank Pagliughi Sent: 13 December 2007 20:06 Cc: ecos-discuss@sources.redhat.com Subject: Re: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? As a embedded-systems consultant, I've been using eCos for several years, and I love it. I've used it for my own development - test apps and demos - but I have never been able to sell a single customer on using the OS for a project. When a potential customer (usually a manager type) has a look, those things do stand out: it *looks* old and out of date, on first pass. Most don't seem to get past poking around the web page. For more technically sophisticated customers, when 2.0 first appeared, it literally took ten minutes to download the code, and get a sample app running on an old PC. Now when I tell a customer to take it for a test drive, the setup gets involved, with pieces from several places. I try to tell them to look closer, but by that time, they've already chosen something else. From my experience, the current state of the project doesn't seem to help sell it. Frank -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-14 11:15 ` Chris Zimman @ 2007-12-14 11:20 ` Andrew Lunn 2007-12-14 12:00 ` Paul D. DeRocco ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Andrew Lunn @ 2007-12-14 11:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chris Zimman; +Cc: Frank Pagliughi, ecos-discuss On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 05:38:02AM -0500, Chris Zimman wrote: > Frank, > > I think you raise a valid point here. Perhaps it would be time to consider > creating a more up to date release. > Rather frequently on the list, someone will say something to the effect of > 'I've downloaded/am using eCos 2.0 ...blah blah...it seems very out of > date...' The traditional response has been 'Go pull the latest from CVS'. > > Thoughts anyone? It has been for a long time the aim to make a release once the copyright transfer to FSF is completed. This has take much much longer than we ever thought it would take. We are nearly there, there is just one copyright assignment left, which is taking a while to sort out. Once this is completed we will start the work needed for a release. This is not something we can do overnight. It involves a lot of work. Nearly ever file needs to be touched in order to change the copyright notices. We probably need new tool chains, want to merge in the v2 flash branch, maybe pick up some patches which got dropped along the way etc. We need to do a lot of testing.... Andrew -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* RE: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-14 11:20 ` Andrew Lunn @ 2007-12-14 12:00 ` Paul D. DeRocco 2007-12-14 14:28 ` [ECOS] FSF copyright assignmnett. [Was Re: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive?] Ilija Koco ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Paul D. DeRocco @ 2007-12-14 12:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ecos-discuss > From: Andrew Lunn > > It has been for a long time the aim to make a release once > the copyright transfer to FSF is completed. This has take > much much longer than we ever thought it would take. We are > nearly there, there is just one copyright assignment left, > which is taking a while to sort out. > > Once this is completed we will start the work needed for a > release. This is not something we can do overnight. It > involves a lot of work. Nearly ever file needs to be touched > in order to change the copyright notices. We probably need > new tool chains, want to merge in the v2 flash branch, maybe > pick up some patches which got dropped along the way etc. We > need to do a lot of testing.... The problem that led to this thread is that there is no mention on any of the web pages of anything other than 2.0, even though in reality the CVS has hundreds of subsequent revisions of individual files in it. You don't get to see that unless you download the code and look at when the individual files were checked in. It's understandable that people would be unaware at first that the CVS doesn't simply contain "version 2.0". If the CVS could spit out an automated revision history, perhaps consisting of a separate web page for each month, and that had a link to it on the home page, people might not get this misimpression. -- Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco Paul mailto:pderocco@ix.netcom.com -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [ECOS] FSF copyright assignmnett. [Was Re: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive?] 2007-12-14 11:20 ` Andrew Lunn 2007-12-14 12:00 ` Paul D. DeRocco @ 2007-12-14 14:28 ` Ilija Koco 2007-12-14 16:21 ` [ECOS] FSF copyright assignment. " Daniel Morris 2007-12-14 17:11 ` [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? Grant Edwards 2007-12-17 11:29 ` Jonathan Larmour 3 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Ilija Koco @ 2007-12-14 14:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: eCos Discussion Andrew Lunn wrote: > On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 05:38:02AM -0500, Chris Zimman wrote: > >> Frank, >> >> I think you raise a valid point here. Perhaps it would be time to consider >> creating a more up to date release. >> Rather frequently on the list, someone will say something to the effect of >> 'I've downloaded/am using eCos 2.0 ...blah blah...it seems very out of >> date...' The traditional response has been 'Go pull the latest from CVS'. >> >> Thoughts anyone? >> > > It has been for a long time the aim to make a release once the > copyright transfer to FSF is completed. This has take much much longer > than we ever thought it would take. We are nearly there, there is just > one copyright assignment left, which is taking a while to sort out. > > Once this is completed we will start the work needed for a > release. This is not something we can do overnight. It involves a lot > of work. Nearly ever file needs to be touched in order to change the > copyright notices. We probably need new tool chains, want to merge in > the v2 flash branch, maybe pick up some patches which got dropped > along the way etc. We need to do a lot of testing.... > > Andrew > And yet there isn't any note of this event. I am apologize for changing the subject, but I don't recall of any announcement on mailing list and surely there isn't any news at ecos.sourceware.org. I got an official (snail mail) letter from eCosCentric about my assignment being transfered to FSF and that's all. Best regards Ilija -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [ECOS] FSF copyright assignment. [Was Re: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive?] 2007-12-14 14:28 ` [ECOS] FSF copyright assignmnett. [Was Re: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive?] Ilija Koco @ 2007-12-14 16:21 ` Daniel Morris 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Daniel Morris @ 2007-12-14 16:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ilija Koco; +Cc: eCos Discussion On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 01:00:02PM +0100, Ilija Koco wrote: > Andrew Lunn wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 05:38:02AM -0500, Chris Zimman wrote: > > > >> Frank, > >> > >> I think you raise a valid point here. Perhaps it would be time to consider > >> creating a more up to date release. > >> Rather frequently on the list, someone will say something to the effect of > >> 'I've downloaded/am using eCos 2.0 ...blah blah...it seems very out of > >> date...' The traditional response has been 'Go pull the latest from CVS'. > >> > >> Thoughts anyone? > >> > > > > It has been for a long time the aim to make a release once the > > copyright transfer to FSF is completed. This has take much much longer > > than we ever thought it would take. We are nearly there, there is just > > one copyright assignment left, which is taking a while to sort out. > > > > Once this is completed we will start the work needed for a > > release. This is not something we can do overnight. It involves a lot > > of work. Nearly ever file needs to be touched in order to change the > > copyright notices. We probably need new tool chains, want to merge in > > the v2 flash branch, maybe pick up some patches which got dropped > > along the way etc. We need to do a lot of testing.... > > > > Andrew > > > And yet there isn't any note of this event. I am apologize for changing > the subject, but I don't recall of any announcement on mailing list and > surely there isn't any news at ecos.sourceware.org. I got an official > (snail mail) letter from eCosCentric about my assignment being > transfered to FSF and that's all. > As Andrew said above it is still not complete, despite the hundreds of hours spent on trying to complete this process - my apologies for under-estimating the time already spent on this, as I only have direct visibility of eCosCentric time that has gone into it. Pre-announcing, giving a blow-by-blow report of who's not responding & for how long etc. would just add to the frustration and build a platform for further whining, whinging and unproductive gossip. As you've seen, mostly people try to rise above the level of responding to trolls, ill-considered views, non-existent smoking-guns, cheap shots and unreasonable criticism ;-) In other news, eCosCentric secured the rights to the eCos trademark earlier in the year in order to protect the mark, its usage and to ensure that the community would be able to use it. We wouldn't have done that if we weren't planning for the continued growth of eCos... Daniel %<---------------------------------------------------------------------- Daniel Morris - Sales & Marketing Director eCosCentric - The eCos and RedBoot experts Tel: +44 1223 245 571 - info@eCosCentric.com DDI: +44 1269 591 171 - danielm@eCosCentric.com eCosCentric Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 4422071, VAT number GB 811 6278 42, registered address Barnwell House, Barnwell Drive, Cambridge CB5 8UU, UK. -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-14 11:20 ` Andrew Lunn 2007-12-14 12:00 ` Paul D. DeRocco 2007-12-14 14:28 ` [ECOS] FSF copyright assignmnett. [Was Re: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive?] Ilija Koco @ 2007-12-14 17:11 ` Grant Edwards 2007-12-14 18:10 ` Brian Austin 2007-12-17 11:29 ` Jonathan Larmour 3 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Grant Edwards @ 2007-12-14 17:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ecos-discuss On 2007-12-14, Andrew Lunn <andrew@lunn.ch> wrote: > On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 05:38:02AM -0500, Chris Zimman wrote: >> Frank, >> >> I think you raise a valid point here. Perhaps it would be time to consider >> creating a more up to date release. >> Rather frequently on the list, someone will say something to the effect of >> 'I've downloaded/am using eCos 2.0 ...blah blah...it seems very out of >> date...' The traditional response has been 'Go pull the latest from CVS'. >> >> Thoughts anyone? > > It has been for a long time the aim to make a release once the > copyright transfer to FSF is completed. This has take much > much longer than we ever thought it would take. We are nearly > there, there is just one copyright assignment left, which is > taking a while to sort out. > > Once this is completed we will start the work needed for a > release. This is not something we can do overnight. It > involves a lot of work. Nearly ever file needs to be touched > in order to change the copyright notices. We probably need new > tool chains, want to merge in the v2 flash branch, maybe pick > up some patches which got dropped along the way etc. We need > to do a lot of testing.... If there's anything that can be done by soembody with a few hours a week to spare, let us know. As far as testing goes, my opinion is that a "release" doesn't have to be guaranteed 100% bug free. It would just need to mean that there aren't any known incomatibilities beetween major packages. I think what we need more than anything is just some snaphosts that can be used as reference points when discussing or documenting things. It's OK if release XYZ has some bugs. The important thing is to be able to say "I'm running release XYZ with these patches" and have that mean something. I know one can accomplish the same thing by using a CVS snapshot for a particular date/time, but without common reference points in the development history, it's difficult to even discuss some things. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! I'm gliding over a at NUCLEAR WASTE DUMP near visi.com ATLANTA, Georgia!! -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-14 17:11 ` [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? Grant Edwards @ 2007-12-14 18:10 ` Brian Austin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Brian Austin @ 2007-12-14 18:10 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ecos-discuss What does the ecos group wish to accomplish by making releases? If it causes people to not use it, then I guess I "release" with a more recent date could help that cause, but other than that, I see nothing wrong with just pulling the tips _if_ you need new code. I have not had people ask me for an official release though. As long as it does what it's supposed to, they dont seem to mind. my 2 cents. Brian On Fri, 2007-12-14 at 16:33 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote: > On 2007-12-14, Andrew Lunn <andrew@lunn.ch> wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 05:38:02AM -0500, Chris Zimman wrote: > >> Frank, > >> > >> I think you raise a valid point here. Perhaps it would be time to consider > >> creating a more up to date release. > >> Rather frequently on the list, someone will say something to the effect of > >> 'I've downloaded/am using eCos 2.0 ...blah blah...it seems very out of > >> date...' The traditional response has been 'Go pull the latest from CVS'. > >> > >> Thoughts anyone? > > > > It has been for a long time the aim to make a release once the > > copyright transfer to FSF is completed. This has take much > > much longer than we ever thought it would take. We are nearly > > there, there is just one copyright assignment left, which is > > taking a while to sort out. > > > > Once this is completed we will start the work needed for a > > release. This is not something we can do overnight. It > > involves a lot of work. Nearly ever file needs to be touched > > in order to change the copyright notices. We probably need new > > tool chains, want to merge in the v2 flash branch, maybe pick > > up some patches which got dropped along the way etc. We need > > to do a lot of testing.... > > If there's anything that can be done by soembody with a few > hours a week to spare, let us know. > > As far as testing goes, my opinion is that a "release" doesn't > have to be guaranteed 100% bug free. It would just need to > mean that there aren't any known incomatibilities beetween > major packages. I think what we need more than anything is > just some snaphosts that can be used as reference points when > discussing or documenting things. It's OK if release XYZ has > some bugs. The important thing is to be able to say "I'm > running release XYZ with these patches" and have that mean > something. > > I know one can accomplish the same thing by using a CVS > snapshot for a particular date/time, but without common > reference points in the development history, it's difficult to > even discuss some things. > > -- > Grant Edwards grante Yow! I'm gliding over a > at NUCLEAR WASTE DUMP near > visi.com ATLANTA, Georgia!! > > -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-14 11:20 ` Andrew Lunn ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2007-12-14 17:11 ` [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? Grant Edwards @ 2007-12-17 11:29 ` Jonathan Larmour 3 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Jonathan Larmour @ 2007-12-17 11:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: eCos discussion Andrew Lunn wrote: > > Once this is completed we will start the work needed for a > release. This is not something we can do overnight. It involves a lot > of work. Nearly ever file needs to be touched in order to change the > copyright notices. We probably need new tool chains, Hopefully not "need". > want to merge in > the v2 flash branch, maybe pick up some patches which got dropped > along the way etc. We need to do a lot of testing.... Andrew's spot on, and eCosCentric will be involved in that. This has been planned for a loong time, and I put together a todo list many months ago, but we've been stalled on the legal side for an inordinate time. Replying to some other things in this thread, to make things clear, eCosCentric are a company but it's never been our desire for eCosPro to _replace_ stable eCos releases, but to augment and improve them. Now we can't bring everything in eCos to the standard of eCosPro ;) (not least because there are things that eCosPro has which eCos does not), but the most important thing at the moment is to get a stable baseline for eCos and consolidate the state of everything right now. In answer to what Grant said, yes it will take time which effectively means money, but eCosCentric is willing to dedicate decent time to this (assuming we're not tied up on pre-existing contract work of course). Will the next release be a major step forward from present anoncvs? Apart from flashv2, probably not for existing anoncvs users, but it will be much better for new eCos users. Big improvements shouldn't be aimed for releases really - only bite off what you can chew! Jifl -- eCosCentric Limited http://www.eCosCentric.com/ The eCos experts Barnwell House, Barnwell Drive, Cambridge, UK. Tel: +44 1223 245571 Registered in England and Wales: Reg No 4422071. ------["Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere"]------ Opinions==mine -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-14 6:38 ` Frank Pagliughi 2007-12-14 11:15 ` Chris Zimman @ 2007-12-14 16:34 ` Brian Austin 2007-12-14 16:39 ` Sergei Organov 2007-12-14 18:47 ` Grant Edwards 1 sibling, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Brian Austin @ 2007-12-14 16:34 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ecos-discuss I can see that, but as for what we use ( RedBoot ). customers love it. From my experiences, if it does what it's supposed to do, who cares how old it is. How many folks use X11? On Thu, 2007-12-13 at 15:06 -0500, Frank Pagliughi wrote: > As a embedded-systems consultant, I've been using eCos for several > years, and I love it. I've used it for my own development - test apps > and demos - but I have never been able to sell a single customer on > using the OS for a project. When a potential customer (usually a > manager type) has a look, those things do stand out: it *looks* old and > out of date, on first pass. Most don't seem to get past poking around > the web page. > > For more technically sophisticated customers, when 2.0 first appeared, > it literally took ten minutes to download the code, and get a sample app > running on an old PC. Now when I tell a customer to take it for a test > drive, the setup gets involved, with pieces from several places. > > I try to tell them to look closer, but by that time, they've already > chosen something else. From my experience, the current state of the > project doesn't seem to help sell it. > > Frank > -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-14 16:34 ` Brian Austin @ 2007-12-14 16:39 ` Sergei Organov 2007-12-14 18:47 ` Grant Edwards 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Sergei Organov @ 2007-12-14 16:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Brian Austin; +Cc: ecos-discuss Brian Austin <brian.austin@cirrus.com> writes: > I can see that, but as for what we use ( RedBoot ). customers love it. > >From my experiences, if it does what it's supposed to do, who cares how > old it is. How many folks use X11? Well, from xorg site: "The last release of X.Org was 7.3, on September 6, 2007". -- less than 4 months ago ;) I think we must admit that situation with eCos releases is rather unique among alive open-source projects and therefore it can lead to the wrong conclusion that the project is either dead or stagnating. -- Sergei. -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-14 16:34 ` Brian Austin 2007-12-14 16:39 ` Sergei Organov @ 2007-12-14 18:47 ` Grant Edwards 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Grant Edwards @ 2007-12-14 18:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ecos-discuss On 2007-12-14, Brian Austin <brian.austin@cirrus.com> wrote: >> From my experiences, if it does what it's supposed to do, who >> cares how old it is. How many folks use X11? X11 is not "old" in the sense that we're discussing. X11 has very regular releases (about twice a year). The most recent release was X11R7.3 that came out in September of 2007. R7.4 is expected to be out in Feb 08. The last release of eCos was so long ago that it's not even mentioned on the "news" page at http://ecos.sourceware.org/ that only goes back 4 years. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! Remember, in 2039, at MOUSSE & PASTA will visi.com be available ONLY by prescription!! -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-13 9:46 [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? Loginov Alexander 2007-12-13 9:50 ` Loginov Alexander 2007-12-13 15:15 ` Grant Edwards @ 2007-12-13 20:06 ` Mike Arthur 2007-12-14 13:47 ` Ilija Koco 3 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Mike Arthur @ 2007-12-13 20:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Loginov Alexander; +Cc: ecos-discuss > Thanks for your comments. Now a bit clearer why the releases are not > available. But it is quite strange: there is eCosCentric but no > releases. Normally the commercial companies that are at the back of the > open-source project, do this job. Check RTEMS for example. eCosCentric does contribute to the public CVS repository. They keep all of their releases internal to their branched version of eCos, eCosPro. The commercial arm of RTEMS (OAR Corporation) has not branched from RTEMS, so all of their contributions and releases are within the public tree. > By the way, do you now any more-or-less free RTOS that provides support > for privilege levels and process protection? > I believe there was some talk on the RTEMS mailing list about getting something similar to VxWorks' RTPs going within RTEMS. I don't know if this ever came to fruition. Hope this helps, Mike -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? 2007-12-13 9:46 [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? Loginov Alexander ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2007-12-13 20:06 ` Mike Arthur @ 2007-12-14 13:47 ` Ilija Koco 3 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Ilija Koco @ 2007-12-14 13:47 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ecos-discuss > By the way, do you now any more-or-less free RTOS that provides support > for privilege levels and process protection? > This may be solution for you. http://www.rtai.org/ Regards Ilija -- Before posting, please read the FAQ: http://ecos.sourceware.org/fom/ecos and search the list archive: http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/ecos-discuss ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2007-12-14 22:34 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 21+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2007-12-13 9:46 [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? Loginov Alexander 2007-12-13 9:50 ` Loginov Alexander 2007-12-13 15:15 ` Grant Edwards 2007-12-13 15:43 ` Chris Zimman 2007-12-13 17:40 ` Grant Edwards 2007-12-14 0:48 ` Bob Koninckx 2007-12-14 1:41 ` Grant Edwards 2007-12-14 6:38 ` Frank Pagliughi 2007-12-14 11:15 ` Chris Zimman 2007-12-14 11:20 ` Andrew Lunn 2007-12-14 12:00 ` Paul D. DeRocco 2007-12-14 14:28 ` [ECOS] FSF copyright assignmnett. [Was Re: [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive?] Ilija Koco 2007-12-14 16:21 ` [ECOS] FSF copyright assignment. " Daniel Morris 2007-12-14 17:11 ` [ECOS] Re: Is eCos project still alive? Grant Edwards 2007-12-14 18:10 ` Brian Austin 2007-12-17 11:29 ` Jonathan Larmour 2007-12-14 16:34 ` Brian Austin 2007-12-14 16:39 ` Sergei Organov 2007-12-14 18:47 ` Grant Edwards 2007-12-13 20:06 ` Mike Arthur 2007-12-14 13:47 ` Ilija Koco
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox; as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).