[Bug localedata/1015] New: There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[Bug localedata/1015] New: There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[mikhailian at altern dot org]

I am listed as a contributor for the be_BY locale

We had a heated discussion almost 1 year ago on the belarusian i18n mailing list
<i18n@mova.org> around belarusian locales.

Many belarusian translators for FOSS software are on the list and we invited
Bruno Haible to help us on the topic.

Upon the discussion results, I suggest introducing a new locale named
be_BY@classic for the Belarusian classic writing which is the only productive
(in the linguistic sense) writing in Belarus nowadays.

This matches the advice of Bruno. Whoever will commit this change should contact
him if more details are required. Petter Reinholdtsen has also been included in
the dicussion but fell off pretty quickily.

Below comes the contents of the locale definition:


comment_char %
escape_char  /
%
% Belarusian Language Locale for Belarus
% Contact: Alexander Mikhailian
% Email: mikhailian@altern.org
% Language: be
% Territory: BY
% Revision: 0.5
% Date: 2004-08-24
% Application: general
% Users: general
% Repertoiremap: mnemonic.ds
% Charset: CP1251, UTF-8
% Distribution and use is free, also
% for commercial purposes.

LC_IDENTIFICATION
title      "Belarusian locale for Belarus, traditional spelling"
source     "Belarusian i18n mailing list"
address    "i18n@mova.org"
contact    "Alexander Mikhailian"
email      "mikhailian@altern.org"
tel        "+32 494 60 91 31"
fax        ""
language   "Belarusian"
territory  "Belarus"
revision   "1.0"
date       "2000-06-29"
audience   ""
application ""
abbreviation "taraskievica"
%
category  "be_BY:2000";LC_IDENTIFICATION
category  "be_BY:2000";LC_CTYPE
category  "be_BY:2000";LC_COLLATE
category  "be_BY:2000";LC_TIME
category  "be_BY:2000";LC_NUMERIC
category  "be_BY:2000";LC_MONETARY
category  "be_BY:2000";LC_MESSAGES
category  "be_BY:2000";LC_PAPER
category  "be_BY:2000";LC_TELEPHONE
category  "be_BY:2000";LC_MEASUREMENT
category  "be_BY:2000";LC_NAME
category  "be_BY:2000";LC_ADDRESS

END LC_IDENTIFICATION

LC_COLLATE
copy "iso14651_t1"

% iso14651_t1 is missing Ukrainian ghe
collating-symbol <UKR-GHE>

reorder-after <CYR-GZHE>
<UKR-GHE>

reorder-after <U0453>
<U0491> <UKR-GHE>;<BAS>;<MIN>;IGNORE

reorder-after <U0403>
<U0490> <UKR-GHE>;<BAS>;<CAP>;IGNORE

reorder-end
END LC_COLLATE

LC_CTYPE
copy "i18n"
END LC_CTYPE

LC_MESSAGES
yesexpr "<U005E><U005B><U0414><U0434><U0059><U0079><U005D><U002E><U002A>"
noexpr  "<U005E><U005B><U041D><U043D><U004E><U006E><U005D><U002E><U002A>"
END LC_MESSAGES

LC_MONETARY
int_curr_symbol           "<U0042><U0059><U0052><U0020>"
currency_symbol           "<U0440><U0443><U0431>"
mon_decimal_point         "<U002E>"
mon_thousands_sep         "<U0020>"
mon_grouping              3;3
positive_sign             ""
negative_sign             "<U002D>"
int_frac_digits           2
frac_digits               2
p_cs_precedes             0
p_sep_by_space            1
n_cs_precedes             0
n_sep_by_space            1
p_sign_posn               1
n_sign_posn               1
END LC_MONETARY

LC_NUMERIC
decimal_point             "<U002C>"
thousands_sep             "<U002E>"
grouping                  3;3
END LC_NUMERIC

LC_TIME
day     "<U041D><U044F><U0434><U0437><U0435><U043B><U044F>";/
        "<U041F><U0430><U043D><U044F><U0434><U0437><U0435><U043B><U0430><U043A>";/
        "<U0410><U045E><U0442><U043E><U0440><U0430><U043A>";/
        "<U0421><U0435><U0440><U0430><U0434><U0430>";/
	"<U0427><U0430><U0446><U044C><U0432><U0435><U0440>";/
        "<U041F><U044F><U0442><U043D><U0456><U0446><U0430>";/
        "<U0421><U0443><U0431><U043E><U0442><U0430>"
abday   "<U041D><U044F><U0434>";/
        "<U041F><U0430><U043D>";/
        "<U0410><U045E><U0442>";/
        "<U0421><U0440><U0434>";/
        "<U0427><U0446><U0432>";/
        "<U041F><U044F><U0442>";/
        "<U0421><U0443><U0431>"
first_weekday 2
first_workday 2
mon     "<U0421><U0442><U0443><U0434><U0437><U0435><U043D><U044C>";/
        "<U041B><U044E><U0442><U044B>";/
        "<U0421><U0430><U043A><U0430><U0432><U0456><U043A>";/
        "<U041A><U0440><U0430><U0441><U0430><U0432><U0456><U043A>";/
        "<U0422><U0440><U0430><U0432><U0435><U043D><U044C>";/
        "<U0427><U044D><U0440><U0432><U0435><U043D><U044C>";/
        "<U041B><U0456><U043F><U0435><U043D><U044C>";/
        "<U0416><U043D><U0456><U0432><U0435><U043D><U044C>";/
        "<U0412><U0435><U0440><U0430><U0441><U0435><U043D><U044C>";/
        "<U041A><U0430><U0441><U0442><U0440><U044B><U0447><U043D><U0456><U043A>";/
        "<U041B><U0456><U0441><U0442><U0430><U043F><U0430><U0434>";/
        "<U0421><U044C><U043D><U0435><U0436><U0430><U043D><U044C>"
abmon   "<U0421><U0442><U0434>";/
        "<U041B><U044E><U0442>";/
        "<U0421><U0430><U043A>";/
        "<U041A><U0440><U0441>";/
        "<U0422><U0440><U0430>";/
        "<U0427><U044D><U0440>";/
        "<U041B><U0456><U043F>";/
        "<U0416><U043D><U0432>";/
        "<U0412><U0440><U0441>";/
        "<U041A><U0441><U0442>";/
        "<U041B><U0456><U0441>";/
        "<U0421><U043D><U0436>"
d_t_fmt "<U0025><U0061><U0020><U0025><U0064><U0020><U0025><U0062>/
<U0020><U0025><U0059><U0020><U0025><U0054>"
d_fmt   "<U0025><U0064><U002E><U0025><U006D><U002E><U0025><U0059>"
t_fmt   "<U0025><U0054>"
am_pm   "";""
t_fmt_ampm  ""
date_fmt    "<U0025><U0061><U0020><U0025><U0062><U0020><U0025><U0065>/
<U0020><U0025><U0048><U003A><U0025><U004D><U003A><U0025><U0053><U0020>/
<U0025><U005A><U0020><U0025><U0059>"
END LC_TIME

LC_PAPER
% FIXME
height   297
% FIXME
width    210
END LC_PAPER

LC_TELEPHONE
tel_int_fmt    "<U002B><U0025><U0063><U0020><U0025><U0061><U0020><U0025>/
<U006C>"
int_prefix     "<U0033><U0037><U0035>"
int_select     "<U0038><U007E><U0031><U0030>"
END LC_TELEPHONE

LC_MEASUREMENT
% FIXME
measurement    1
END LC_MEASUREMENT

LC_NAME
name_mr     "<U0441><U043F><U0430><U0434><U0430><U0440>"
name_ms     "<U0441><U043F><U0430><U0434><U0430><U0440><U044B><U043D><U044F>"
name_mrs    "<U0441><U043F><U0430><U0434><U0430><U0440><U044B><U043D><U044F>"
name_miss   ""
name_gen    ""
name_fmt    "<U0025><U0064><U0025><U0074><U0025><U0067><U0025><U0074>/
<U0025><U006D><U0025><U0074><U0025><U0066>"
END LC_NAME

LC_ADDRESS
postal_fmt  "<U0025><U0066><U0025><U004E><U0025><U0061><U0025><U004E>/
<U0025><U0064><U0025><U004E><U0025><U0062><U0025><U004E><U0025><U0073>/
<U0020><U0025><U0068><U0020><U0025><U0065><U0020><U0025><U0072><U0025>/
<U004E><U0025><U0025><U007A><U0020><U0025><U0054><U0025>/
<U004E><U0025><U0063><U0025><U004E>"
country_name "<U0411><U0435><U043B><U0430><U0440><U0443><U0441><U044C>"
country_post ""
country_car "<U0042><U0059>"
country_ab2 "<U0042><U0059>"
country_ab3 "<U0042><U004C><U0052>"
country_num 112
country_isbn 5
lang_name   "<U0411><U0435><U043B><U0430><U0440><U0443><U0441><U043A>/
<U0430><U044F><U0020><U043C><U043E><U0432><U0430>"
END LC_ADDRESS

-- 
           Summary: There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale
           Product: glibc
           Version: unspecified
            Status: NEW
          Severity: enhancement
          Priority: P2
         Component: localedata
        AssignedTo: libc-locales at sources dot redhat dot com
        ReportedBy: mikhailian at altern dot org
                CC: glibc-bugs at sources dot redhat dot com


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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[barbier at linuxfr dot org]

------- Additional Comments From barbier at linuxfr dot org  2005-06-16 20:49 -------
Alexander, you should consider replacing LC_* sections by
  copy "be_BY"
when they are identical to be_BY (i.e. all except LC_TIME,
from what I've seen, and of course LC_IDENTIFICATION),
this would help future maintenance of your locale files.

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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[mikhailian at altern dot org]

------- Additional Comments From mikhailian at altern dot org  2005-06-22 00:27 -------
Created an attachment (id=529)
 --> (http://sources.redhat.com/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=529&action=view)
be_BY@classic belarusian locale

OK, here comes the modified version. Sorry for the delay.

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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[yury_tarasievich at yahoo dot com]

------- Additional Comments From yury_tarasievich at yahoo dot com  2005-07-12 09:20 -------
I think, word "classic" here would be misleading.

This qualifier of the aforementioned orthography is self-awarded and is inaccurate by any definition, as both qualifier 
and orthography aren't used or recognized as such by anybody excepting rather minor minority.

I'd suggest naming this be_BY@alternative. This would be 100% accurate per all definitions of "classic" and 
"alternative", pertain accurately to the goals of the mentioned minority movement, and there's a precedent of the 
usage of the term "alternative" in this part of the world (DOS Cyrillic codepages in late 1980-s).

Also, you won't have a problem with multitude of "alternatives" as there seems to exist now some kind of standard 
on this alternative.

Yes, I was participating in aforementioned discussion and No, I won't re-start the discussion *here*, unless asked 
for further explanations. However, feel free to contact me privately via e-mail, if needed or interested.


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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[adiel at nospam dot kiev dot ua]

------- Additional Comments From adiel at nospam dot kiev dot ua  2005-08-03 13:26 -------
Belarusian locale is very necessary!

+1 !


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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[kas at altlinux dot org]

------- Additional Comments From kas at altlinux dot org  2005-08-03 13:30 -------
> I think, word "classic" here would be misleading.
See to linguistic literature - http://www.knihi.net/index.php?productID=224
"classic" is name of the spelling.

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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[cactus at narod dot ru]

------- Additional Comments From cactus at narod dot ru  2005-08-03 13:55 -------
We need Belarusian locale

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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[yury_tarasievich at yahoo dot com]

------- Additional Comments From yury_tarasievich at yahoo dot com  2005-08-04 09:35 -------
I didn't make myself clear, then. This isn't about linguistics at all.

In Belarusian language community, there exists certain interest group, promoting use of several (long obsoleted) 
orthography rules. This group calls their variant of Belarusian orthography "classic".
Alexander Mikhailian proposes creating additional be_BY@... branch, which would assert usage of the mentioned 
orthography variant. And that's perfectly okay! Just the qualifier isn't chosen well.
I wouldn't put "classic" but rather, e.g., "alternative" there because:

The term "classic", by every definition, is something well-recognized, widely or traditionally used.
However, virtually nobody in Belarusian community outside of the interest group (which isn't numerous and/or 
popular!) recognizes the mentioned variant as "classic", neither by knowing or referring the name, nor by usage 
tradition -- as the variant's key orthography features were obsoleted about 70 years ago!
Even the group-promoted usage of name "classic" started, it seems, between 1992 and 1994 (judging by two big 
publications on Belarusian orthography by one of the group leaders).

On the other hand, term "alternative" here would be immediately recognizable, both by popular understanding and 
by group self-imaging.

P.S. The book Kirill A. Shutemov pointed me to contains one of the editions of the mentioned orthography variant, 
published by the interest group, supervised, even authored, it seems, by one of the interest group leaders. 


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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[drepper at redhat dot com]

------- Additional Comments From drepper at redhat dot com  2005-10-14 18:05 -------
I really have no interest to get in the middle of all this.  The extension
@classic seems indeed to be wrong to me from what I read.  And there is already
a Belarusian locale.

Unless this second language variant is the official one (which I doubt it is) it
is best to just collect a tarball with all the appropriate files and distribute
it separately.  There is nothing a separately distribute locale source file
cannot do if it is compiled using localedef upon installation.

Adding variants like this (as opposed to Latin vs Cyrillic, for instance) would
mean we open ourselves to all kind of fights like this.

So, unless I get some really convincing arguments I'll close this as WONTFIX.

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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[yury_tarasievich at yahoo dot com]

------- Additional Comments From yury_tarasievich at yahoo dot com  2005-10-18 08:25 -------
(In reply to comment #8)
...
> So, unless I get some really convincing arguments I'll close this as WONTFIX.

If nothing else comes up, I'm supporting this as it goes.


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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[ShupaS at rferl dot org]

------- Additional Comments From ShupaS at rferl dot org  2005-12-08 13:45 -------
Yury Tarasievich says:

"I think, word "classic" here would be misleading. This qualifier of the 
aforementioned orthography is self-awarded and is inaccurate by any definition, 
as both qualifier and orthography aren't used or recognized as such by anybody 
excepting rather minor minority."

I wouldn't like to start the old discussion with Mr Tarasevich who has some 
unexplained repugnance for that other orthography and has been the only one to 
fight it vehemently in all relevant net discussions.

However, I want to draw your attention to an inaccuracy in his comment - upon 
which all his argumentation is built:

Those who follow that "other" orthography are in slight MAJORITY (not in minor 
minority) on the Net. You can easily prove it - just google any pair of words 
spelled differently in the two orthographies.



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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[yury_tarasievich at yahoo dot com]

------- Additional Comments From yury_tarasievich at yahoo dot com  2005-12-13 23:09 -------
Let me re-iterate (and bring this back to topic):

I am, generally, *in* *favour* of this separation of locales.

The way I see it, if folks want their very own sub-locale, then okay and good riddance.
There's already latin-scripted sub-locale approved, created, I hear, for the userbase that is yet to 
emerge one day. So why not one extra?

But then, the initially proposed "classic" qualifier is inappropriate and unmerited, either measured by 
popular support or by usage tradition.
And google hits aren't relevant at all to this exact question of being or not being classic.
Other things, and quite material at that, are.

Be it noticed, I do *not* accept even the general quality of Mr.Shupa's expoundations. 
But that kind of discussion would be well out of scope of this issue.



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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[viksia at gmail dot com]

------- Additional Comments From viksia at gmail dot com  2005-12-14 08:35 -------
If the word 'classic' is controversial point then let name it e.g.
'alternative'. Do not let our puristic discussions lead us to nothing. But we
need the locale.

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[yury_tarasievich at yahoo dot com]

------- Additional Comments From yury_tarasievich at yahoo dot com  2005-12-26 12:24 -------
Just for the record: I've nothing against naming this branch "alternative".




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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[ihar dot hrachyshka at gmail dot com]

------- Additional Comments From ihar dot hrachyshka at gmail dot com  2006-11-09 11:47 -------
So what's the result?
Maybe, it's time to register be_BY@alternative and to move/copy the existing
*.po files of GNOME/coreutils etc. into this "namespace"?

Also we should change the be_BY locale for the norms of standard Belarusian I think.

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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[ihar dot hrachyshka at gmail dot com]

------- Additional Comments From ihar dot hrachyshka at gmail dot com  2006-11-13 10:41 -------
BTW, the Debian be-locale-data supports the be_BY@alternative extension quite a
lot. Please, make this extension upstream.

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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[ihar dot hrachyshka at gmail dot com]

------- Additional Comments From ihar dot hrachyshka at gmail dot com  2007-12-19 21:02 -------
IANA authorities has already approved the official name of alternative
Belarusian orthography variant: be-tarask
Here is the link: http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry
Can we register this locale then?

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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[375gnu at gmail dot com]

------- Additional Comments From 375gnu at gmail dot com  2008-05-17 05:32 -------
we really need additional belarusian locale (be@tarask as aproved by IANA). Just
because the most of translations made for be@tarask, not for be, and you can't
ignore this fact

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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[ihar dot hrachyshka at gmail dot com]

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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[ihar dot hrachyshka at gmail dot com]

------- Additional Comments From ihar dot hrachyshka at gmail dot com  2009-10-23 20:29 -------
Dear Ulrich: Is there any chance we can get the bug fixed in glibc?

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[Bug localedata/1015] There is a need for an alternative belarusian locale

[jekhor at gmail dot com]

------- Additional Comments From jekhor at gmail dot com  2009-10-23 20:42 -------
We want to use alternative Belarusian locale in our project (openinkpot.org),
but we don't want to create yet another (216th) patch for glibc.

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[375gnu at gmail dot com]

------- Additional Comments From 375gnu at gmail dot com  2010-01-17 17:11 -------
Created an attachment (id=4525)
 --> (http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=4525&action=view)
be_BY@tarask locale definition for glibc

it's a be_BY@tarask locale definition for glibc. please, accept it at last.

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