Re: gnats/263

Re: gnats/263

[Milan Zamazal]

>>>>> "y" == yngves  <yngves@sources.redhat.com> writes:

    y> I strongly suggest that we include the manual in HTML, DVI, PS
    y> and PDF formats in beta and release distributions, so people
    y> won't have to have loads of different software installed in order
    y> to be able to get it in the format we want.

We shouldn't be so much generous, since this would make the distribution
significantly larger.  I think we should include Info; PostScript and
HTML are under consideration, there is no point in inclusion of DVI and
PDF, IMHO.

Regards,

Milan Zamazal

-- 
It's amazing how much better you feel once you've given up hope.
                                                (unknown source)

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Re: gnats/263

[Hugo Gayosso]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Milan Zamazal <pdm@zamazal.org> writes:

> We shouldn't be so much generous, since this would make the
> distribution significantly larger.  I think we should include Info;
> PostScript and HTML are under consideration, there is no point in
> inclusion of DVI and PDF, IMHO.

I agree, maybe put all those other formats in the website for those
who don't have the tools to convert.



- -- 
Hugo Gayosso                            |  The ultimate result is that some  
Controls Process Support                |  innovations that would truly 
Electronics Integration and Software    |  benefit consumers never occur 
GM Powertrain                           |  for the sole reason that they
                                        |  do not coincide with Microsoft's 
                                        |  self-interest.
                                        |      
                                        |            Thomas Penfield Jackson
                                        |              U.S. District Judge
                                        |

DISCLAIMER:
        All what I said is my own point of view, not the one of my
	employer, unless it is specifically said so.
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Re: gnats/263

[Yngve Svendsen]

At 21:55 07.12.01 +0100, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>We shouldn't be so much generous, since this would make the distribution
>significantly larger.  I think we should include Info; PostScript and
>HTML are under consideration, there is no point in inclusion of DVI and
>PDF, IMHO.

The fact that the distribution would be larger is a valid point, but I 
think the case for including PDF is strong (DVI isn't very important, since 
it for most purposes is simply a step in the creation of a Postscript 
file), since Info and Postscript are cumbersome formats to handle when you 
aren't on a Linux / UNIX platform. Very few Windows machines have software 
installed that allows Postscript viewing on-sceen, and even sending a 
Postscript file to the printer from a Windows machine is a challenge. Thus, 
I'd ask you to reconsider, and if PDF isn't included we should at the very 
least provide a downloadable version from the GNU website. A raw PDF 
created from the current manual runs at 365kB gzipped, but I believe that 
running it through an optimization in Adobe Acrobat should reduce the size 
significantly.

- Yngve


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Re: gnats/263

[Milan Zamazal]

>>>>> "y" == yngves  <yngves@sources.redhat.com> writes:

    y> I strongly suggest that we include the manual in HTML, DVI, PS
    y> and PDF formats in beta and release distributions, so people
    y> won't have to have loads of different software installed in order
    y> to be able to get it in the format we want.

We shouldn't be so much generous, since this would make the distribution
significantly larger.  I think we should include Info; PostScript and
HTML are under consideration, there is no point in inclusion of DVI and
PDF, IMHO.

Regards,

Milan Zamazal

-- 
It's amazing how much better you feel once you've given up hope.
                                                (unknown source)

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Re: gnats/263

[Hugo Gayosso]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Milan Zamazal <pdm@zamazal.org> writes:

> We shouldn't be so much generous, since this would make the
> distribution significantly larger.  I think we should include Info;
> PostScript and HTML are under consideration, there is no point in
> inclusion of DVI and PDF, IMHO.

I agree, maybe put all those other formats in the website for those
who don't have the tools to convert.



- -- 
Hugo Gayosso                            |  The ultimate result is that some  
Controls Process Support                |  innovations that would truly 
Electronics Integration and Software    |  benefit consumers never occur 
GM Powertrain                           |  for the sole reason that they
                                        |  do not coincide with Microsoft's 
                                        |  self-interest.
                                        |      
                                        |            Thomas Penfield Jackson
                                        |              U.S. District Judge
                                        |

DISCLAIMER:
        All what I said is my own point of view, not the one of my
	employer, unless it is specifically said so.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

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=eLrs
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Re: gnats/263

[Yngve Svendsen]

At 21:55 07.12.01 +0100, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>We shouldn't be so much generous, since this would make the distribution
>significantly larger.  I think we should include Info; PostScript and
>HTML are under consideration, there is no point in inclusion of DVI and
>PDF, IMHO.

The fact that the distribution would be larger is a valid point, but I 
think the case for including PDF is strong (DVI isn't very important, since 
it for most purposes is simply a step in the creation of a Postscript 
file), since Info and Postscript are cumbersome formats to handle when you 
aren't on a Linux / UNIX platform. Very few Windows machines have software 
installed that allows Postscript viewing on-sceen, and even sending a 
Postscript file to the printer from a Windows machine is a challenge. Thus, 
I'd ask you to reconsider, and if PDF isn't included we should at the very 
least provide a downloadable version from the GNU website. A raw PDF 
created from the current manual runs at 365kB gzipped, but I believe that 
running it through an optimization in Adobe Acrobat should reduce the size 
significantly.

- Yngve


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Re: gnats/263

[Milan Zamazal]

>>>>> "YS" == Yngve Svendsen <yngve.svendsen@clustra.com> writes:

    YS> The fact that the distribution would be larger is a valid point,
    YS> but I think the case for including PDF is strong (DVI isn't very
    YS> important, since it for most purposes is simply a step in the
    YS> creation of a Postscript file), since Info and Postscript are
    YS> cumbersome formats to handle when you aren't on a Linux / UNIX
    YS> platform. Very few Windows machines have software installed that
    YS> allows Postscript viewing on-sceen, and even sending a
    YS> Postscript file to the printer from a Windows machine is a
    YS> challenge. 

To install and run GNATS you need a real machine available so this is no
strong argument :-).

    YS> Thus, I'd ask you to reconsider, and if PDF isn't included we
    YS> should at the very least provide a downloadable version from the
    YS> GNU website.

First, the Postscript file included in the beta1 distribution tarball is
a mistake, I haven't intended to include it.  I wanted to include only
Info files.

PDF, Postscript and HTML (this one as both tar.gz and an on-line manual)
will be available from the GNATS web site (is it worth to create them
already for beta1?).

The reason for inclusion of Info files is that on-line documentation,
unlike manuals intended basically for printing only, is a part of the
standard software installation.

    YS> A raw PDF created from the current manual runs at 365kB gzipped,
    YS> but I believe that running it through an optimization in Adobe
    YS> Acrobat should reduce the size significantly.

I don't think it's a good idea to provide something that can't be
created with free tools.

Regards,

Milan Zamazal

-- 
http://www.zamazal.org

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Re: gnats/263

[Yngve Svendsen]

At 00:31 01.01.02 +0100, Milan Zamazal wrote:
>To install and run GNATS you need a real machine available so this is no
>strong argument :-).

Well, some people (including me) have desktops that are non-UNIX and run 
GNATS on back-room servers with no X.

>First, the Postscript file included in the beta1 distribution tarball is
>a mistake, I haven't intended to include it.  I wanted to include only
>Info files.
>
>PDF, Postscript and HTML (this one as both tar.gz and an on-line manual)
>will be available from the GNATS web site (is it worth to create them
>already for beta1?).

I'd say we should try to create them for beta 1. I am planning to redo the 
GNATS web site next week (apart from the front page, which is fine), so I 
can create the PDF and publish it then.

>The reason for inclusion of Info files is that on-line documentation,
>unlike manuals intended basically for printing only, is a part of the
>standard software installation.

Good point, but I'd still recommend including a HTML version in the 
distribution itself, since a lot of people are more comfortable with 
browsing web pages than using Info.

>I don't think it's a good idea to provide something that can't be
>created with free tools.

I have opinions which probably differ quite a lot from yours in that area, 
but this isn't the forum for that kind of thing. Anyway, we don't need to 
worry too much about the size of the resulting file when we publish it as a 
separate download.

- Yngve


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Re: gnats/263

[Milan Zamazal]

>>>>> "YS" == Yngve Svendsen <yngve.svendsen@clustra.com> writes:

    YS> I'd say we should try to create them for beta 1. I am planning
    YS> to redo the GNATS web site next week (apart from the front page,
    YS> which is fine), so I can create the PDF and publish it then.

OK, thanks.  Could you please put the PS file (if you don't have the
tools to create it, you can use the one from the distribution tarball)
and HTML there too?

    YS> Good point, but I'd still recommend including a HTML version in
    YS> the distribution itself, since a lot of people are more
    YS> comfortable with browsing web pages than using Info.

I still think it's not necessary -- they can either use an on-flow
Info -> HTML conversion (e.g. info2www) or download them from Web.

    YS> Anyway, we don't need to worry too much about the size of the
    YS> resulting file when we publish it as a separate download.

Yes.

Regards,

Milan Zamazal

-- 
Free software is about freedom, not about free beer.  If you care only about
the latter, you'll end up with no freedom and no free beer.

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Re: gnats/263

[Hugo Gayosso]

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Hash: SHA1

Yngve Svendsen <yngve.svendsen@clustra.com> writes:

> >I don't think it's a good idea to provide something that can't be
> >created with free tools.
> 
> I have opinions which probably differ quite a lot from yours in that
> area, but this isn't the forum for that kind of thing.


GNATS is part of the GNU Project so this is issue is important because
any GNU program should NOT rely on any non-free tools according to GNU
standards.

Greetings,
- -- 
Hugo Gayosso                            |  The ultimate result is that some  
Controls Process Support                |  innovations that would truly 
Electronics Integration and Software    |  benefit consumers never occur 
GM Powertrain                           |  for the sole reason that they
                                        |  do not coincide with Microsoft's 
                                        |  self-interest.
                                        |      
                                        |            Thomas Penfield Jackson
                                        |              U.S. District Judge
                                        |

DISCLAIMER:
        All what I said is my own point of view, not the one of my
	employer, unless it is specifically said so.
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