RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

Dave Korn wrote:
> On 24 May 2006 18:38, Bruce Wehr wrote:
> 
> > First, a little background.  I am currently selling some rare Pokemon 
> > cards on eBay ... this is an item that has universal appeal.
> 
>   LIAR. [snip non-Cygwin-related content]

Why did this Cygwinless rant not only appear on cygwin@, but was not even
Followup-To'ed cygwin-talk@?  While I can forgive the former, and the latter
for that matter, The Powers That Run These Mailing Lists are not nearly so
forgiving.  I'd mind my P's and Q's were I you, Mr. Korn.  Word to the wise.

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

> From: Bruce Wehr
> 
> Dave wrote:
> > Well, that little yellow guy always does this really loathsome 
> > grunting and straining and going red in the face act that does make 
> > him look like he's suffering the world's worst case of constipation 
> > ever.
> 
> It's obvious there are no Pokemon fans here.
> 

Oh now I wouldn't say that.  My favorite is Roo-Stor.

> Pokemon - a contraction of the English bastardized 
> translation of the original Japanese name for these 
> characters.  Pokemon is a contraction of "Pocket Monsters."  
> They are so called because they live in a little plastic ball 
> inside a kid's pocket, awaiting such a time as the kid gets 
> in trouble, whips out his/her ball, and sends his/her Pokemon 
> to fight his/her battles for him/her (usually against some 
> other kid's Pokemon, said other kid also being in trouble, 
> likely a fight with said first kid).
> 

Aggravated double entendres plus cartoon violence involving minors, please.
Warnings #1, #2, #7, and #22.

> Every one of these little critters is a Pokemon.  Yes, they 
> each have their own individual name (as well as their own 
> trading card, which can be collected, traded or used to play 
> a card game based on them).  The cards can also be used to 
> Make Money Fast (or Lose Money Fast!)!  <he says, as he dives 
> for the shelter to escape the anticipated incoming flamage.>  
> (Have I shared my long-winded Pokemon roller-coaster 
> investment story?  Go ahead, invite me to do so.  I dare you.  :)
> 

I explicitly do not invite you to share said story.  I will however inform
you of the universal truth that anybody who puts actual money into a
*Pokemon* *trading* *card* ***investment*** scheme deserves not only to lose
all that money, but also should be fined substantial punitive damages and
serve a minimum of three years in a state penetentiary.

> Anyway, that little yellow guy?  He has his own name.  H'yah, 
> he really does.  It's Pikachu.  And, he's my daughter's favorite.
> 

I got to buy it, I got to buy it!

> I love my daughter.  My daughter loves Pikachu.  Watch what 
> you have to say about that Little Yellow Guy, or face the 
> Wrath of Dad.

Well, that was the best Star Trek movie, so I guess I have to give you that
one.

>  You have been warned.

Dude, that's Faylor's line.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go read the fine print on my 401(k)....

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle
 

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Igor Peshansky]

On Fri, 26 May 2006, Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:

> > From: Bruce Wehr
> >
> > Brian wrote:
> > > It was one of those random threads that somehow turned into a heated
> > > debate about evolution.
> >
> > *O* *M* *G*!  Take my word: you *DON'T* want me to get
> > started on THAT subject!!
> >
> > (If you think I've been long-winded and adversarial before ... :)
>
> Tut tut now, my good man!  Surely you don't believe that Pokemons[1]
> were created from whole cloth, by some superior being?!?!

Well, whole paper, maybe...

<,>,<	Igor
-- 
				http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/
      |\      _,,,---,,_	    pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu | igor@watson.ibm.com
ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_		Igor Peshansky, Ph.D. (name changed!)
     |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'		old name: Igor Pechtchanski
    '---''(_/--'  `-'\_) fL	a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-.  Meow!

"Las! je suis sot... -Mais non, tu ne l'es pas, puisque tu t'en rends compte."
"But no -- you are no fool; you call yourself a fool, there's proof enough in
that!" -- Rostand, "Cyrano de Bergerac"

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

> From: Bruce Wehr
> 
> Brian wrote:
> > It was one of those random threads that somehow turned into 
> a heated 
> > debate about evolution.
> 
> *O* *M* *G*!  Take my word: you *DON'T* want me to get 
> started on THAT subject!!
> 
> (If you think I've been long-winded and adversarial before ... :)
> 

Tut tut now, my good man!  Surely you don't believe that Pokemons[1] were
created from whole cloth, by some superior being?!?!

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle
[1] Whatever they are.

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

> From: Brian Dessent
> 
> Bruce Wehr wrote:
> 
> > Would somebody please indulge my curiosity and explain from 
> whence all 
> > these hippos came?  And, more imporantly ... WHY?
> 
> It was one of those random threads that somehow turned into a 
> heated debate about evolution... starting around here 
> <http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-talk/2005-q2/msg00079.html> and 
> from there it just kept going and going.

Are you sure?  Korny's been going on and on and on about those aqueous
pachyderms for a long time.

Or maybe it just seems that way.

(I just totally zinged you there Korns! ;-))

>  For a while the 
> cygwin icon on the website was replaced with a hippo and 
> other such shenanigans:
> <http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2005-05/msg00098.html>
> 
> Brian

My version was much better (of course) ;-).

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle
 

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Bruce Wehr]

Brian wrote:
> It was one of those random threads that somehow turned into a 
> heated debate about evolution.

*O* *M* *G*!  Take my word: you *DON'T* want me to get started on THAT
subject!!

(If you think I've been long-winded and adversarial before ... :)

<>< Bruce

Re: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Brian Dessent]

Bruce Wehr wrote:

> Would somebody please indulge my curiosity and explain from whence all these
> hippos came?  And, more imporantly ... WHY?

It was one of those random threads that somehow turned into a heated
debate about evolution... starting around here
<http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-talk/2005-q2/msg00079.html> and from there
it just kept going and going.  For a while the cygwin icon on the
website was replaced with a hippo and other such shenanigans:
<http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2005-05/msg00098.html>

Brian

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Igor Peshansky]

On Fri, 26 May 2006, Bruce Wehr wrote:

> Igor said:
> > > Feed the hippo.
> >
> > People, we've got a convert!
> >
> > > Love the hippo.
> >
> > But this is not THAT kind of list.
> >
> > > Run from the hippo.
> >
> > Naturally...
>
> Would somebody please indulge my curiosity and explain from whence all
> these hippos came?  And, more imporantly ... WHY?

For "whence" -- search the cygwin-talk archives.  As for "why" -- your
guess is as good as mine.  It just sort of caught on.

> <>< Bruce

> P.S. Igor: is that pronounced EEE-gor, EYE-gor, or Smith?

EEE-gor, like Frankenstein's assistant.

<,>,<  Igor
-- 
				http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/
      |\      _,,,---,,_	    pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu | igor@watson.ibm.com
ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_		Igor Peshansky, Ph.D. (name changed!)
     |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'		old name: Igor Pechtchanski
    '---''(_/--'  `-'\_) fL	a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-.  Meow!

"Las! je suis sot... -Mais non, tu ne l'es pas, puisque tu t'en rends compte."
"But no -- you are no fool; you call yourself a fool, there's proof enough in
that!" -- Rostand, "Cyrano de Bergerac"

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Bruce Wehr]

Igor said:
> > Feed the hippo.
> 
> People, we've got a convert!
> 
> > Love the hippo.
> 
> But this is not THAT kind of list.
> 
> > Run from the hippo.
> 
> Naturally...

Would somebody please indulge my curiosity and explain from whence all these
hippos came?  And, more imporantly ... WHY?

<>< Bruce

P.S. Igor: is that pronounced EEE-gor, EYE-gor, or Smith?

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Bruce Wehr]

Gary said:
> Double Word Score on "shan't" though. ;-)

Oooohhh ... Do I smell a Scrabble fan around here?  Mewonders if s/he has
the computer version of the game that can be played over the net!

Looking for a challenge?  I am.  :)

> Yeah, hmpfh, they're /soo/ last week. ;-)

More like /soo/ last year.  Or, more accurately, /soo/ five years ago. <big
pout> :(  (Damn! I wish those things would catch on again!)

<>< Bruce

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Bruce Wehr]

Dave wrote:
> Well, that little yellow guy always does this really 
> loathsome grunting and straining and going red in the face 
> act that does make him look like he's suffering the world's 
> worst case of constipation ever.

It's obvious there are no Pokemon fans here.

Pokemon - a contraction of the English bastardized translation of the
original Japanese name for these characters.  Pokemon is a contraction of
"Pocket Monsters."  They are so called because they live in a little plastic
ball inside a kid's pocket, awaiting such a time as the kid gets in trouble,
whips out his/her ball, and sends his/her Pokemon to fight his/her battles
for him/her (usually against some other kid's Pokemon, said other kid also
being in trouble, likely a fight with said first kid).

Every one of these little critters is a Pokemon.  Yes, they each have their
own individual name (as well as their own trading card, which can be
collected, traded or used to play a card game based on them).  The cards can
also be used to Make Money Fast (or Lose Money Fast!)!  <he says, as he
dives for the shelter to escape the anticipated incoming flamage.>  (Have I
shared my long-winded Pokemon roller-coaster investment story?  Go ahead,
invite me to do so.  I dare you.  :)

Anyway, that little yellow guy?  He has his own name.  H'yah, he really
does.  It's Pikachu.  And, he's my daughter's favorite.

I love my daughter.  My daughter loves Pikachu.  Watch what you have to say
about that Little Yellow Guy, or face the Wrath of Dad.  You have been
warned.

<>< Bruce

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Bruce Wehr]

Gary said:
> I don't know what an "IAG" is.  Is that a Pokemon?

Nope.  It's an acronym for one of my own personal catch phrases (which I got
from Wes, one of my kids' friends): "It's All Good."  I offered it up for
potential inclusion in the OLOCA is an earlier post.

> Because 
> if it is, David Korn will get angry.  Don't make Dave 
> angry... You wouldn't like Dave when he's angry

H'yah!  But, don't worry - Dave made sure nobody else had to inform me of
this no-so-little, unpleasant fact.  :)  My crisp, burnt flesh was still
smoking when I left work that day.  I imagine it must be like how you're
gonna feel when you get to where you're finally going (i.e. Not Good).
Dave's post wasn't flames; it was a friggin' blast furnace!

(BTW, Dave: Do you prefer Dave, David or have no preference?)

> Alas, I do.  I am made all things to all men, that I might by 
> all means save some.

Hmmm ... Sumpin's wrong with my tinkin' machine ... It's *still* unable to
translate this statement's intended meaning and applicability.

> No thanks, not if it involves Pokemons and/or spamming.

Rest assured, it has nothing to do with Pokemons or spamming.

> I never met a spammer who didn't claim to be.

HEY!  Am I being presumed guilty by reason of association here?  BAD Gary!

<>< Bruce

Re: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[mwoehlke]

Dave Korn wrote:
> On 26 May 2006 16:02, mwoehlke wrote:
>> Therefore, by 
>> subscribing to such a group, you are stating your intentions to receive 
>> "junk mail" ("spam"?) targeted to that audience.
> 
>   That is a thoroughly false impression.  Your equation of "advertising ==
> spam" is utterly wrong.  Spam has a definition, and it's not your say-so.  Now
> go find out what a "breidbart index" is, and don't post any more uninformed
> idle speculation until you have some FACTS to back up your posts.

Gee, welcome to humanity! Note that I had a *question mark* in the above 
post, meaning "some people might *consider* this 'spam'". Of course, 
subscribing to it means it is no longer - technically - "spam", because 
it is solicited.

-- 
Matthew
Feed the hippo. Love the hippo. Run from the hippo.

Re: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[mwoehlke]

Igor Peshansky wrote:
> On Fri, 26 May 2006, mwoehlke wrote:
>> [snip] { a => b, b => c } <=> { a => c }
> 
> The implication doesn't go both ways -- only to the right.

Oh, duh, you're right of course. :-)

Sheesh, and I *majored* in this stuff...

>> Feed the hippo.
> 
> People, we've got a convert!

You *just* noticed? ;-)

>> Love the hippo.
> 
> But this is not THAT kind of list.

Hey, I "love" my cats (um... no you're not one of "my cats" :-)), but 
not *that* way! You're thinking the wrong kind of "love"!

>> Run from the hippo.
> 
> Naturally...

:-D

-- 
Matthew
Feed the hippo. Love the hippo. Run from the hippo.

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Dave Korn]

On 26 May 2006 17:26, Dave Korn wrote:

> On 26 May 2006 16:02, mwoehlke wrote:
 
>> Therefore, by
>> subscribing to such a group, you are stating your intentions to receive
>> "junk mail" ("spam"?) targeted to that audience.
> 
>   That is a thoroughly false impression.  

  Doh!  I said everyone has one, not two!  IMTS "inference".

    cheers,
      DaveK
-- 
Can't think of a witty .sigline today....

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Dave Korn]

On 26 May 2006 16:02, mwoehlke wrote:

> Like I said, my impression of *.forsale 

  Yes, but your /impression/ isn't important because it doesn't redefine
reality.  You could have a mistaken impression.  Impressions are like
opinions: everybody has one.

> EVERYTHING there is advertisement. 

  That is indeed true.

> Therefore, by 
> subscribing to such a group, you are stating your intentions to receive 
> "junk mail" ("spam"?) targeted to that audience.

  That is a thoroughly false impression.  Your equation of "advertising ==
spam" is utterly wrong.  Spam has a definition, and it's not your say-so.  Now
go find out what a "breidbart index" is, and don't post any more uninformed
idle speculation until you have some FACTS to back up your posts.


    cheers,
      DaveK
-- 
Can't think of a witty .sigline today....

Re: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Igor Peshansky]

On Fri, 26 May 2006, mwoehlke wrote:

> Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
> > > From: mwoehlke
> > > ...Ruthlessly beating Windows with a hammer until it looks like POSIX.
> >
> > "Linux".  Cygwin is "Linux" on Windows now.  No, I'm not sure when or
> > why that changed either.
>
> But... but... CYNUX! Cygwin's NOT Linux? :-)

No, Cygwin isn't.  But if there is behavior in Linux in some area where
POSIX is murky, Cygwin sides with Linux.

> I guess it does *look* like Linux, though, but Linux looks like POSIX.
> Since { a => b, b => c } <=> { a => c }, Cygwin looks like POSIX; QED.
> :-)
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Transitive.html

The implication doesn't go both ways -- only to the right.

> Feed the hippo.

People, we've got a convert!

> Love the hippo.

But this is not THAT kind of list.

> Run from the hippo.

Naturally...
	Igor
-- 
				http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/
      |\      _,,,---,,_	    pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu | igor@watson.ibm.com
ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_		Igor Peshansky, Ph.D. (name changed!)
     |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'		old name: Igor Pechtchanski
    '---''(_/--'  `-'\_) fL	a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-.  Meow!

"Las! je suis sot... -Mais non, tu ne l'es pas, puisque tu t'en rends compte."
"But no -- you are no fool; you call yourself a fool, there's proof enough in
that!" -- Rostand, "Cyrano de Bergerac"

Re: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[mwoehlke]

Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
>> From: mwoehlke
>> Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
>>> 2.  What you claim you want to do is spamming, pure and simple, by 
>>> anybody's definition.  BTW: Anybody's definition is: "Sending 
>>> unsolicited email, usually in an effort to get money from somebody 
>>> legally or otherwise, en masse to a bajillion newsgroups 
>> and/or email addresses."
>>
>> [snip] ...but I think "unsolicited" is at best debatable, if not
>> outright false.
>>
> 
> ?  I don't follow.

Like I said, my impression of *.forsale is that they are like 
classifieds... i.e. EVERYTHING there is advertisement. Therefore, by 
subscribing to such a group, you are stating your intentions to receive 
"junk mail" ("spam"?) targeted to that audience.

>> --
>> Matthew
>> ...Ruthlessly beating Windows with a hammer until it looks like POSIX.
> 
> "Linux".  Cygwin is "Linux" on Windows now.  No, I'm not sure when or why
> that changed either.

But... but... CYNUX! Cygwin's NOT Linux? :-)

I guess it does *look* like Linux, though, but Linux looks like POSIX. 
Since { a => b, b => c } <=> { a => c }, Cygwin looks like POSIX; QED. :-)

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Transitive.html

-- 
Matthew
Feed the hippo. Love the hippo. Run from the hippo.

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Dave Korn]

On 26 May 2006 03:35, Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:

>>> 4.  If you are in fact a filthy spammer, well, then I'll save you a
>>> seat in Hell.
>> 
>> ...Mind the hippos.
>> 
> 
> Korn's the hippo expert here, but I don't think they're allowed in hell.
> Too ornery.

  Also not nearly as much water as they'd like!

  The red sweat thing would suit them down there, though.

    cheers,
      DaveK
-- 
Can't think of a witty .sigline today....

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

> From: mwoehlke
> 
> Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
> >> From: Bruce Wehr
> > [Holy snip]
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^ :-)
> 
> > 2.  What you claim you want to do is spamming, pure and simple, by 
> > anybody's definition.  BTW: Anybody's definition is: "Sending 
> > unsolicited email, usually in an effort to get money from somebody 
> > legally or otherwise, en masse to a bajillion newsgroups 
> and/or email addresses."
> 
> I shan't mention that he is not sending *e-mail*... :-)

Doh!  I expect Korns would get me on that. ;-)  Double Word Score on
"shan't" though. ;-)

> but I 
> think "unsolicited" is at best debatable, if not outright false.
> 

?  I don't follow.

> > 3.  Dave Korn hates Pokemons and becomes enraged at the 
> very mention 
> > of them, hence his ranting against you.  But who amongst us 
> here can blame him?
> 
> Oops, I was wrong... *that* was your first mistake. :-D
> 
> Can't say I'm too fond of them either.
> 

Yeah, hmpfh, they're /soo/ last week. ;-)

> > 4.  If you are in fact a filthy spammer, well, then I'll save you a 
> > seat in Hell.
> 
> ...Mind the hippos.
> 

Korn's the hippo expert here, but I don't think they're allowed in hell.
Too ornery.

> --
> Matthew
> ...Ruthlessly beating Windows with a hammer until it looks like POSIX.

"Linux".  Cygwin is "Linux" on Windows now.  No, I'm not sure when or why
that changed either.

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle
 

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

> From: Christopher Faylor
> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 9:31 AM
> To: The Cygwin-Talk Maiming List
> Subject: Re: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?
> 
> On Thu, May 25, 2006 at 01:06:17PM +0100, Dave Korn wrote:
> >On 25 May 2006 12:11, bruce@wehrhere wrote:
> >>(Especially since Gary tells me that you loathe Pokemon.  :)
> >
> >Well, that little yellow guy always does this really 
> loathsome grunting 
> >and straining and going red in the face act that does make him look 
> >like he's suffering the world's worst case of constipation ever.
> >Someone should put some senna pods in with the poor critter's dry 
> >biscuits!
> 
> Little yellow guy?  So, you're saying that you know Gary 
> personally, Dave?
> 

See?  You got Dave so upset that he got *Chris* all upset to the point he
thought we were talking about him!  Sorry Chris, just another false alarm.

And I dearly hope that wasn't intended to be the racial slur it sure sounds
like.

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

> From: bruce@wehrhere.com
> 
> Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
> > Assuming you're not a deliberate spammer, this whole 
> hullabaloo could 
> > have easily been avoided by simply asking your question without the 
> > six chapters about Pokemons (whatever they are), why you 
> were selling 
> > them, what your advertising strategy was, etc etc etc.
> 
> I get it.  Short.  Succinct.  Cool.  IAG.
> 

I don't know what an "IAG" is.  Is that a Pokemon?  Because if it is, David
Korn will get angry.  Don't make Dave angry... You wouldn't like Dave when
he's angry.... <cue hulking green monster>

> > If you are in fact a filthy spammer, well, then I'll save 
> you a seat in Hell.
> 
> Awwww, Gary!  Why would you say such things?

You're right.  The filthy spammers can stand.

>  C'mon, man ... 
> it's all good!  Why would you think that you're going to 
> hell?  You don't have to, you know.

Alas, I do.  I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save
some.

>  I could show you The Way.
> 

No thanks, not if it involves Pokemons and/or spamming.

> (WARNING:  I'm not only an evil spammer (according to some, 
> at least), but I'm also a born-again Christian.  HOO-rah!  :)
> 

I never met a spammer who didn't claim to be.

> <>< Bruce
> 

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle
 

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Bruce Wehr]

Reid Thomson wrote:
> postnews appears to be a python script -- it *should* work as 
> long as you've used setup.exe to install python.

This wins the prize as the single most helpful reply since this thread
began!  Thanks Reid!

<>< Bruce

Re: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[One Angry User]

On a windy Thursday, the 25th day of May, 2006, mwoehlke's computer deigned to emit the following stream of bytes:

> Bruce Wehr wrote:
>
> > Anyway, I just ran out of wind.
>
> I think I just ran out of smileys. :-)

Hey, you've only used two of them: ":-)" and ";-)"...  Next time, try
something like -,O,'*  (supposedly, the canonical hippo smiley).

OAU

Re: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[mwoehlke]

Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
>> From: Bruce Wehr
> [Holy snip]
   ^^^^^^^^^^^ :-)

> 2.  What you claim you want to do is spamming, pure and simple, by anybody's
> definition.  BTW: Anybody's definition is: "Sending unsolicited email,
> usually in an effort to get money from somebody legally or otherwise, en
> masse to a bajillion newsgroups and/or email addresses."

I shan't mention that he is not sending *e-mail*... :-) but I think 
"unsolicited" is at best debatable, if not outright false.

> 3.  Dave Korn hates Pokemons and becomes enraged at the very mention of
> them, hence his ranting against you.  But who amongst us here can blame him?

Oops, I was wrong... *that* was your first mistake. :-D

Can't say I'm too fond of them either.

> 4.  If you are in fact a filthy spammer, well, then I'll save you a seat in
> Hell.

...Mind the hippos.

-- 
Matthew
...Ruthlessly beating Windows with a hammer until it looks like POSIX.

Re: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[mwoehlke]

Bruce Wehr wrote:
> Matthew wrote:
>> Bruce Wehr wrote:
>>> I was introduced to Usenet on or about 1985.
>>> See how many times I've been flamed.
>> Ok, I accept your challenge. This post, and the previous one, 
>> are at fault. I don't know what reputation you have on 
>> USENET, and I don't have time to kill "finding out", but 
>> you've already grossly violated netiquette for *this* list 
>> not once, but twice.
> 
> Twice?  Interesting ...

Yup, but welcome to the club of TITTTL violators. I think we've come to 
consensus on the first one.

>> First off, go read <http://cygwin.com/lists.html> (which you 
>> should have read before posting *anything*)
> 
> Hmmm ... I did so, and find your assumption otherwise very presumptuous.  I
> hope you don't mind, but I'd like to share with the group that which I said
> to you in a private email.

Nope, I was tempted to ask to FW my reply to it here. :-)

And #1 wasn't an OT, it was, as GHVS pointed out the backstory (which is 
now beating a dead horse, as per the above comment). The original post 
was on-topic.

> <- begin email quote ->
> 
> I did read that page, front to back, top to bottom and left to right before
> I posted.  I searched the list archives, feeling *sure* that this question
> *had* to have been addressed already.  I was truly surprised that, in all
> these years, nobody seemed to raise the question.
> 
> I used to be an HP-UX admin, so I *know* the headaches associated with
> administering mailing lists and newsgroups. I *know* how tiresome
> inappropriate, off-topic and repeat questions can be, and how often an
> "RTFM!" reply is the best I could squeak out.  I thought I had done my due
> diligence, chose the right mailing list and shown the proper respect before
> posting.  No, I am not a spammer.  Would a spammer bother to take the time
> to do all I have done?  I think my only violation [ed: in my original post]
> was being too long winded (as you pointed out), but that's just me (and I
> even apologized for that at the end of my original post).
> 
> <- end email quote ->
> 
>> <http://cygwin.com/acronyms/#TITTL>
>> which describes what you should have done with this latest 
>> post.
> 
> Okay, as a new visitor to the Cygwin web site and mailing lists, I never saw
> a reference to this.  This is an appropriate, informative page for newbies.
> Perhaps a more prominent pointer on the web site is called for?

See above; "welcome to the club". ;-)

I just picked up the gauntlet you dropped; sorry if I was a little rough 
with it.

>> To summarize: we didn't need three pages of hysterics and 
>> back-story to come with your question.
> 
> Three pages of back-story was probably inappropriate, I will give you that.

Dead horse, dead horse. ;-)

I think I'll stop replying to these as we are in violent agreement. :-)

> I did apologize for that.  As for hysterics, I didn't see any in my original
> post; those all came later.

"<BIG SIGH>", etc. A little goes a long way.

>> There, see? That was *much* easier and more pleasant to read,
> 
> Agreed, and point taken.  Apologies to all.

Happily accepted (on my end, at least, can't speak for anyone else).

>> was not hysterical, and summarized both your problem (which, 
>> incidentally, has nothing at all to do with Cygwin) and the 
> 
> Nothing at all to do with Cygwin?  It *is* a Cygwin question!

No, your *problem* is that you are trying to post a message to a large 
list of newsgroups. If this has anything to do with Cygwin, perhaps you 
can enlighten me.

However, because you know that Cygwin is a very good POSIX environment 
on Windows, and that POSIX is very script-friendly, you are looking for 
a Cygwin *solution* to your problem. Thus, you are 100% correct that 
your question is a Cygwin question, but refer again to 
<http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#goal>... I'm not 
saying that your post was out of line, just that you should keep an open 
mind and realize that the best *solution* might not involve Cygwin.

> As for my second post (which indeed *did* contain hysterics!), if that was
> inappropriate for the main Cygwin list, all I can say is: <pouting and
> pointing my finger at Dave> "He started it!" :)

Yes, he did (and I see I do not hold that opinion alone), and this is 
why TITTTL is so often used. :-)

This is probably exasperated by the old hats simultaneously tending to 
not do it under the belief that the new folks won't realize they did 
(which is why I CC'd you my reply), and expecting the new (i.e. 
inexperienced) folks to know to do it (even though that contradicts the 
first assumption). IOW, it's either lose-lose or relies on the new folks 
to do their homework (but specifically, to find the descriptions of the 
cygwin-talk ML and "TITTTL"). And most people don't. My own belief, 
based on the other newbies I've seen drop in, is that you've done better 
than average.

>> IANAUU (I am not a USENET user), but I would think the 
>> purpose of regional groups is to post about items that *are* 
>> specific to a region. 
>> If your item is *not* specific to a region, then IMO you 
>> should restrict yourself to posting in non-regional forums.
> 
> Well, that's one interpretation.  Things like cars and houses and such.  If
> you live in Florida, you don't want to be bothered with ads for used cars
> for sale in California.  Completely understood.
> 
> Another interpretation says, the item I'm selling *is* available to
> Floridians (even though I don't live there), because I ship there.
> Floridians deserve to know that this is available.  (It is a rather rare
> item.)
> 
> There will be many folks who use the first interpretation; others who use
> the second.  If you side with the first, then the best we can do is agree to
> disagree.

WFM.

>> I'll concede that *.forsale sounds like 
>> a bunch of groups whose purpose of existence is to be the 
>> target of directed spam.
> 
> To me, "spam" is like a shotgun.  Indiscriminate blasting that not only
> covers the intended target, but wholly inappropriate targets too.

Hmm, by that definition I would argue that this mailing list constitutes 
"spam". :-) I'm not particularly interested in "Using gutenprint IJS 
drivers with ghostscript.", but that message was sitting in Thunderbird 
along with the rest of the traffic.

I guess my initial reaction is to consider all blatant advertising 
"spam". I will certainly concede that in this instance it would appear 
to be solicited, so I guess by a more typical definition that is "not 
spam". See what you're doing, you're using reason and logic to make me 
question my own beliefs; stop that! ;-)

>> As for your impression of Dave Korn, you might want to 
>> re-read your OP, read 
>> <http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html> and then 
>> ask yourself (especially considering that many people 
>> consider such excessive cross-posting to be spam) if you're 
>> still surprised by Dave's response.
> 
> As I told you in private email, Matthew, I consider your response much more
> civil and helpful to me than the keyboard-lashing I got from Dave.  Yes, I
> may have broken ML etiquette with my original post (though it was not for
> lack of effort, and I still think my only crime was being too long winded),
> but there are more considerate and polite ways of letting me know I did so
> (such as yours).

I'm glad you feel that way... I think. :-) I know I'm being a bit 
knee-jerk as well, and I'm trying, though not very consistently, to not 
be. ;-)

> As for my second post, my only regret was calling Dave an uncivil name.  I
> should never have stooped that low.  Dave, you may read this list, but I'm
> CCing you too (just in case), because I would like to apologize for that.
> 
> Anyway, I just ran out of wind.

I think I just ran out of smileys. :-)

-- 
Matthew
...Ruthlessly beating Windows with a hammer until it looks like POSIX.

Re: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, May 25, 2006 at 01:06:17PM +0100, Dave Korn wrote:
>On 25 May 2006 12:11, bruce@wehrhere wrote:
>>(Especially since Gary tells me that you loathe Pokemon.  :)
>
>Well, that little yellow guy always does this really loathsome grunting
>and straining and going red in the face act that does make him look
>like he's suffering the world's worst case of constipation ever.
>Someone should put some senna pods in with the poor critter's dry
>biscuits!

Little yellow guy?  So, you're saying that you know Gary personally,
Dave?

*pause*

Oh, no, wait.  I get it.  You're talking about Pokemon.

Nevermind.

cgf

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Dave Korn]

On 25 May 2006 12:11, bruce@wehrhere wrote:

> Dave Korn wrote:
>> Well, since you're not going to spam with it, http://cygwin.com/packages/
>> lists pine and tin.  I haven't tried either of them myself but lots of
>> people swear by them so you might like to have a go.
> 
> Thank you, Dave, for the info.  I will check out pine, since tin doesn't
> seem to have what I'm looking for. 
> 
> AFAIC, Dave, only you and God knows what else was happening in your life
> when my post came across your eyes; it simply could've been the straw that
> broke the camel's back. 

  No, really; that's just how I always react to anyone who announces their
intention to become a spammer!  Spamming is, after all, a criminal act that is
causing *massive* harm to the internet; and part of the problem is that for
every out-and-out fraudster/fake pill pusher/virus-infected zombie hijacking
commercial spammer, there are ten thousand people who "just want to send one
message once" to a whole bunch of groups and who feel that, while what
_others_ do may be spamming, what they do is different and justified since
they have a specially good reason for it and so they clearly are a special
exception.  You have since convinced me that your intentions are good, but
what you announced you wanted to do would have been spamming.  And, where I
feel that the fully complicit criminal spammers should have all their fingers
smashed with sledgehammers[*] for a first offence and be shot on sight[**] for
a second, I feel that tearing a strip off someone in email is a proportionate
response pro rata the nature of the spamming in question.  It certainly
doesn't physically hurt as much as a proper shoeing!

> (Especially since Gary tells me that you loathe Pokemon.  :)   

  Well, that little yellow guy always does this really loathsome grunting and
straining and going red in the face act that does make him look like he's
suffering the world's worst case of constipation ever.  Someone should put
some senna pods in with the poor critter's dry biscuits!

    cheers,
      DaveK

[*]  - So they can't press the "Send" button any more.
[**] - Unlike horror-movie zombies, the head shot is pretty useless against
spammers, owing to the total lack of any kind of vital organs within.
-- 
Can't think of a witty .sigline today....

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[bruce@wehrhere.com]

Gary R. Van Sickle wrote:
> Assuming you're not a deliberate spammer, this whole hullabaloo could
> have easily been avoided by simply asking your question without the six
> chapters about Pokemons (whatever they are), why you were selling them, what
> your advertising strategy was, etc etc etc.

I get it.  Short.  Succinct.  Cool.  IAG.

> If you are in fact a filthy spammer, well, then I'll save you a seat in Hell.

Awwww, Gary!  Why would you say such things?  C'mon, man ... it's all good!  Why would you think that you're going to hell?  You don't have to, you know.  I could show you The Way.

(WARNING:  I'm not only an evil spammer (according to some, at least), but I'm also a born-again Christian.  HOO-rah!  :)

<>< Bruce

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[bruce@wehrhere.com]

Dave Korn wrote:
> Well, since you're not going to spam with it, http://cygwin.com/packages/
> lists pine and tin.  I haven't tried either of them myself but lots of people
> swear by them so you might like to have a go.

Thank you, Dave, for the info.  I will check out pine, since tin doesn't seem to have what I'm looking for.

AFAIC, Dave, only you and God knows what else was happening in your life when my post came across your eyes; it simply could've been the straw that broke the camel's back.  (Especially since Gary tells me that you loathe Pokemon.  :)

That being said, I just have to add:  Wow - that's one helluva welcome for a newbie!  I hope your hazing ritual isn't too much harsher.  :)  I can only say (and, if I may be so bold as to offer a suggested addition to the OLOCA): IAG.  (It's All Good.)

<>< Bruce

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Dave Korn]

On 25 May 2006 02:54, Bruce Wehr wrote:

> To me, "spam" is like a shotgun.  Indiscriminate blasting that not only
> covers the intended target, but wholly inappropriate targets too.
> (Collateral damage? Like if I tried to post to all 100,000+ groups.)

  On usenet, spam has a strictly technical definition: any post with BI>20.
This definition is deliberately content-neutral and entirely mathematical in
order to avoid any subjective decisions which might be biased by personal
prejudices.  It is not my decision and it is not your decision; it is the
established standard, it has been for many years, it was arrived at after
literally years of debate and wrangling as an acceptable compromise by the
vast majority concensus of admins of the major usenet backbone sites; there is
no arguing with it and nothing to discuss.  Break it and you will be
cancelled; break it repeatedly and your ISP will, perhaps sooner, perhaps
later, be obliged to disconnect you.  This is just the fact of the matter.

> As for my second post, my only regret was calling Dave an uncivil name.  I
> should never have stooped that low.  Dave, you may read this list, but I'm
> CCing you too (just in case), because I would like to apologize for that.

  That is very decent of you :)  In exchange I have made a helpful suggestion
back on the main list.  But you must still be aware: it's not your decision
whether your actions constitute spam, it is the joint decision of the admins
whose machines and network resources you are being given license to make use
of to carry your post, because those machines are *their* machines, and they
have property rights over them to set their own policies on their own
machines.  Stick to the guidelines in the FAQ, and the whole world will smile
upon you; break them, and, as Gary said, there's a special circle reserved in
hell for the spammers.


    cheers,
      DaveK
-- 
Can't think of a witty .sigline today....

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Owen Rees]

--On Wednesday, May 24, 2006 21:54:12 -0400 Bruce Wehr wrote:

> No, I am not a spammer.

--On Wednesday, May 24, 2006 13:38:22 -0400 Bruce Wehr wrote:

> Anyway, Xnews has an arbitrary limit on cross posting to 20 groups at a
> time.  Yesterday, I spent quite a bit of time going through all the
> *.forsale groups, selecting 20 at a time, excluding item specific ones
> (like computers or homes) and sending my ad.  It took quite a bit of time
> and was insanely repetitive.  Imagine my surprise when I used Google
> Groups today to search Usenet, only to find that my articles never made
> it out!  <ARRGH!>

Whatever definitions you or I may have for 'spam' and 'spammer' are 
irrelevant. What matters is the definition used by those who cancel spam. 
Dave Korn mentioned "the BI>20 definition of spam" presumably assuming that 
everyone knows that BI stands for "Breidbart Index", knows how it is 
calculated, and knows that 20 is the threshold generally accepted by those 
who actively cancel spam.

BI is the sum of the square roots of the number crossposts of messages 
similar enough to be considered equivalent. "insanely repetitive" suggests 
more than 5 posts to 20 groups and since 5*sqrt(20)>22 that has exceeded 
the threshold used as the definition of cancellable spam by those who 
actively cancel spam.

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Gary R. Van Sickle]

> From: Bruce Wehr
[Holy snip]
> 
> Anyway, I just ran out of wind.

Dude: 

1.  Assuming you're not a deliberate spammer, this whole hullabaloo could
have easily been avoided by simply asking your question without the six
chapters about Pokemons (whatever they are), why you were selling them, what
your advertising strategy was, etc etc etc.

2.  What you claim you want to do is spamming, pure and simple, by anybody's
definition.  BTW: Anybody's definition is: "Sending unsolicited email,
usually in an effort to get money from somebody legally or otherwise, en
masse to a bajillion newsgroups and/or email addresses."

3.  Dave Korn hates Pokemons and becomes enraged at the very mention of
them, hence his ranting against you.  But who amongst us here can blame him?

4.  If you are in fact a filthy spammer, well, then I'll save you a seat in
Hell.

-- 
Gary R. Van Sickle

RE: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[Bruce Wehr]

Matthew wrote:
> Bruce Wehr wrote:
> > I was introduced to Usenet on or about 1985.
> > See how many times I've been flamed.
> 
> Ok, I accept your challenge. This post, and the previous one, 
> are at fault. I don't know what reputation you have on 
> USENET, and I don't have time to kill "finding out", but 
> you've already grossly violated netiquette for *this* list 
> not once, but twice.

Twice?  Interesting ...

> First off, go read <http://cygwin.com/lists.html> (which you 
> should have read before posting *anything*)

Hmmm ... I did so, and find your assumption otherwise very presumptuous.  I
hope you don't mind, but I'd like to share with the group that which I said
to you in a private email.

<- begin email quote ->

I did read that page, front to back, top to bottom and left to right before
I posted.  I searched the list archives, feeling *sure* that this question
*had* to have been addressed already.  I was truly surprised that, in all
these years, nobody seemed to raise the question.

I used to be an HP-UX admin, so I *know* the headaches associated with
administering mailing lists and newsgroups. I *know* how tiresome
inappropriate, off-topic and repeat questions can be, and how often an
"RTFM!" reply is the best I could squeak out.  I thought I had done my due
diligence, chose the right mailing list and shown the proper respect before
posting.  No, I am not a spammer.  Would a spammer bother to take the time
to do all I have done?  I think my only violation [ed: in my original post]
was being too long winded (as you pointed out), but that's just me (and I
even apologized for that at the end of my original post).

<- end email quote ->

> <http://cygwin.com/acronyms/#TITTL>
> which describes what you should have done with this latest 
> post.

Okay, as a new visitor to the Cygwin web site and mailing lists, I never saw
a reference to this.  This is an appropriate, informative page for newbies.
Perhaps a more prominent pointer on the web site is called for?

> To summarize: we didn't need three pages of hysterics and 
> back-story to come with your question.

Three pages of back-story was probably inappropriate, I will give you that.
I did apologize for that.  As for hysterics, I didn't see any in my original
post; those all came later.

> There, see? That was *much* easier and more pleasant to read,

Agreed, and point taken.  Apologies to all.

> was not hysterical, and summarized both your problem (which, 
> incidentally, has nothing at all to do with Cygwin) and the 

Nothing at all to do with Cygwin?  It *is* a Cygwin question!

As for my second post (which indeed *did* contain hysterics!), if that was
inappropriate for the main Cygwin list, all I can say is: <pouting and
pointing my finger at Dave> "He started it!" :)

> I agree with both comments. Please follow them next time.

I honestly thought I had.  I did my due diligence and, having found nothing
on the web or in the archives, I felt that I followed the appropriate
protocols.

> IANAUU (I am not a USENET user), but I would think the 
> purpose of regional groups is to post about items that *are* 
> specific to a region. 
> If your item is *not* specific to a region, then IMO you 
> should restrict yourself to posting in non-regional forums.

Well, that's one interpretation.  Things like cars and houses and such.  If
you live in Florida, you don't want to be bothered with ads for used cars
for sale in California.  Completely understood.

Another interpretation says, the item I'm selling *is* available to
Floridians (even though I don't live there), because I ship there.
Floridians deserve to know that this is available.  (It is a rather rare
item.)

There will be many folks who use the first interpretation; others who use
the second.  If you side with the first, then the best we can do is agree to
disagree.

> I'll concede that *.forsale sounds like 
> a bunch of groups whose purpose of existence is to be the 
> target of directed spam.

To me, "spam" is like a shotgun.  Indiscriminate blasting that not only
covers the intended target, but wholly inappropriate targets too.
(Collateral damage? Like if I tried to post to all 100,000+ groups.)  I look
at *.forsale groups like newspaper classifieds.  Since I'll ship my item
anywhere, including Florida, would you fault me for taking out a classified
ad in a Florida newspaper to advertise my auction?  Now, if I lived in
California and was selling my used car, it would be silly for me to take out
a classified in Florida.

> As for your impression of Dave Korn, you might want to 
> re-read your OP, read 
> <http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html> and then 
> ask yourself (especially considering that many people 
> consider such excessive cross-posting to be spam) if you're 
> still surprised by Dave's response.

As I told you in private email, Matthew, I consider your response much more
civil and helpful to me than the keyboard-lashing I got from Dave.  Yes, I
may have broken ML etiquette with my original post (though it was not for
lack of effort, and I still think my only crime was being too long winded),
but there are more considerate and polite ways of letting me know I did so
(such as yours).

As for my second post, my only regret was calling Dave an uncivil name.  I
should never have stooped that low.  Dave, you may read this list, but I'm
CCing you too (just in case), because I would like to apologize for that.

Anyway, I just ran out of wind.

P.S. There may be a problem on the Cygwin web site: in the 4th paragraph of
the http://cygwin.com/lists.html page, there is a prominent link labeled
"intelligent question."  There is another link shortly thereafter labeled
"problem reporting guidelines."  They both link to the
http://cygwin.com/problems.html page.  From the "problems" page, you can get
to the http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html page through a
link labeled "smart questions."

Shouldn't the "intelligent question" label on the "lists" page take you
directly to the "smart-questions" page?  Seems to make more sense to me.
Just a thought.

<>< Bruce

Re: No postnews or other Usenet news utilities?

[mwoehlke]

Lucky for you, my own attempt to reply seems to have gone to /dev/null. 
Guess I'll re-hash it below as it is still relevant.

I am TITTTLing this, and CC'ing you to ensure that you notice I have 
done so (and hopefully, so will the rest of this list, but if they 
don't, then shame on /them/ ;-)).

Bruce Wehr wrote:
>> the group has existed for a long time 
>> before you came around and has pre-existing standards, 
>> customs and rules that define what is or is not 
>> "appropriate".
> 
> Oh, so now you presume to know how long I've been around, eh?  Pretty
> clairvoyant of you, no?
> 
> Since you brought the subject up, let me tell you how long I've been around
> Usenet.  (I usually avoid speeches like this; they sound so trite.  But, hey
> ... You started it. :)
> 
> I was introduced to Usenet on or about 1985.  I had been a regular
> participant, a respected member of the community for many years.  I invite
> you to visit Google Groups and search for me: "Bruce Wehr."  See how many
> posts come up.  Read a few.  See if I haven't always respected the Rules of
> Netiquette.  Go ahead ... Find fault with any of my posts.  See how many
> times I've been flamed.  (Congratulations: you are a now a member of an
> elite, exclusive and (thankfully) sparsely populated group: the group of
> those who have flamed me.)

Ok, I accept your challenge. This post, and the previous one, are at 
fault. I don't know what reputation you have on USENET, and I don't have 
time to kill "finding out", but you've already grossly violated 
netiquette for *this* list not once, but twice.

First off, go read <http://cygwin.com/lists.html> (which you should have 
read before posting *anything*), and <http://cygwin.com/acronyms/#TITTL> 
which describes what you should have done with this latest post. Second, 
read <http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>.

To summarize: we didn't need three pages of hysterics and back-story to 
come with your question. Let me re-write your original question in six 
lines (note this includes almost 100% of the /relevant/ information from 
your original post):

===
I need to post a message to a large number of newsgroups. I was hoping 
to find an nntp client for Cygwin that allows scripted posting (maybe 
'postnews'), but after looking at what packages setup would let me 
install, all I found was 'tin', and I couldn't find a way to script 
that. Am I not finding the program I want or is there no such thing? If 
not, are there any plans to add any USENET utilities?
===

There, see? That was *much* easier and more pleasant to read, was not 
hysterical, and summarized both your problem (which, incidentally, has 
nothing at all to do with Cygwin) and the current solution path you are 
exploring (i.e. looking for a scriptable Cygwin program).

> Excuse me while I put on my Gieco Cave Man suit and say, "Perhaps you should
> do a little research next time."  It has been said, "It is better to keep
> your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all
> doubt."  Perhaps that's a lesson you should take to heart.

I agree with both comments. Please follow them next time.

> [snip] As for groups that are dedicated to a local
> area:  are there particular areas where people interested in Pokemon cards
> live?  If so, please enlighten me; I promise to limit my ads to those areas.
> Last time I looked, I could find Pokemon collectors in every city, in every
> state, in every country (yes, my auction is open worldwide), on every
> college campus ...  How would you suggest I make my decision?

IANAUU (I am not a USENET user), but I would think the purpose of 
regional groups is to post about items that *are* specific to a region. 
If your item is *not* specific to a region, then IMO you should restrict 
yourself to posting in non-regional forums.

IMO cross-posting to more than a few groups constitutes "spam". It may 
be well-targeted and relevant (if there was no such thing, spammers 
wouldn't bother), but that doesn't make it "not spam". OTOH, I'll 
concede that *.forsale sounds like a bunch of groups whose purpose of 
existence is to be the target of directed spam.

>>   Either that, or you have been cancelled by the usenet 
>> anti-spam bots for your spamming.  Carry on and it will be 
>> your ISP disconnecting you next.
> 
> Wow.  And, will monkeys start coming out my butt?  (Sorry to everyone else
> out there.  I usually don't talk like this, but I'm really starting to lose
> my patience with this asshole.)

Even if I agreed with you that you *may* have a legitimate reason to 
excessively cross-post, it's generally considered bad form and I 
wouldn't be surprised if you *did* get banned for it. That's not meant 
as a 'I think that's bad, don't do it', but a 'other people IMO probably 
won't like that; proceed at your own risk' warning.

As for your impression of Dave Korn, you might want to re-read your OP, 
read <http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html> and then ask 
yourself (especially considering that many people consider such 
excessive cross-posting to be spam) if you're still surprised by Dave's 
response.

-- 
Matthew
Doom doom dooM doo-DooM dOOm DOom doOM... DOOM! -- Gir