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My delayed complaint about spam on this list

[Frank Farance]

On 2018-06-04 12:22, Kunal Ghosh wrote:
> This email list is only for people who would love to be a part of VSDOpen 2018 (in collaboration with ACM SIGDA - The first online opensource EDA conference happening in semi-conductor industry. You will receive all details about the conference, like paper submissions, abstract details, deadlines, etc. by being in this email list. So join and be a part of next-gen online VLSI conferences
> Please click the button below to confirm that you'd like to receive email from VSDOpen2018.
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> 
> Thank you!
> VLSI System Design
> 
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> 
> If you received this in error or do not want to subscribe, simply ignore this email and do not click the button.
> 
> Outer Ring Road
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> Bangalore Karnataka 560037
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> Request generated by:
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> Date: June 04, 2018 12:22 -0400
> URL:

Hi, I enjoy reading the cygwin E-mails, one of the few E-mail lists I regularly follow.  And I've administered multiple E-mail lists over two-plus decades.

I've seen a bunch of spam, and it's continued for a while (beyond my expectation that it would have already ended).  This kinda spam is typically solved by having the E-mail list restricted: only members can submit to the list.  Maybe this has been done already ... but if not, please enable this mailing list feature.  Now if those members start submitting spam, then you can give them warnings and (ultimately) they can lose their membership.  And if people start forging E-mail addresses, you can turn on various SPF-like features to make sure the E-mail is coming from a that source (or an equivalent feature might work well, too).

If you would like to reply to me, please send your response to me directly, DO NOT SEND TO THE LIST.  I will summarize back to the list.  (Think: Old-School 1980s USENET unix-wizards kinda framework.)

Thank you for your administration of this list.

-FF

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Re: My delayed complaint about spam on this list

[James Darnley]

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On 2018-06-04 21:30, Frank Farance wrote:
> Hi, I enjoy reading the cygwin E-mails, one of the few E-mail lists I
> regularly follow.  And I've administered multiple E-mail lists over
> two-plus decades.
> 
> I've seen a bunch of spam, and it's continued for a while (beyond my
> expectation that it would have already ended).  This kinda spam is
> typically solved by having the E-mail list restricted: only members can
> submit to the list.  Maybe this has been done already ... but if not,
> please enable this mailing list feature.  Now if those members start
> submitting spam, then you can give them warnings and (ultimately) they
> can lose their membership.  And if people start forging E-mail
> addresses, you can turn on various SPF-like features to make sure the
> E-mail is coming from a that source (or an equivalent feature might work
> well, too).

It isn't very nice to put "please email cygwin@cygwin.com" in error and
warning messages then deny people the opportunity to send the email.
"Please register first" is annoying as shit.  I have certainly not
reported bugs to lists that make me do that.  The same applies to bug
trackers.

> If you would like to reply to me, please send your response to me
> directly, DO NOT SEND TO THE LIST.  I will summarize back to the list. 
> (Think: Old-School 1980s USENET unix-wizards kinda framework.)

No thanks.  I wish to discuss this openly.



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Re: My delayed complaint about spam on this list

[Frank Farance]

On 2018-06-04 15:47, James Darnley wrote:
> 
> It isn't very nice to put "please email cygwin@cygwin.com" in error and warning messages then deny people the opportunity to send the email. "Please register first" is annoying as shit.  I have certainly not reported bugs to lists that make me do that.  The same applies to bug trackers.
> 
> > If you would like to reply to me, please send your response to me directly, DO NOT SEND TO THE LIST.  I will summarize back to the list. (Think: Old-School 1980s USENET unix-wizards kinda framework.)
> 
> No thanks.  I wish to discuss this openly.

James-

First, my offer to have responses sent to me was a courtesy to the list ... some people would prefer to have this kind of Mailing List Mechanics discussion off line.  No problem having it discussed openly, I'm fine with that, too.

Second, as a mailing list admin myself, at some time we're going to have to deal with spam as some of the members E-mail systems will start tagging normal cygwin stuff as spam, which is the kind of stuff members don't have control over in medium-to-large organizations.  Again, I've heard all these *legitimate* concerns over several decades.

Third, I believe a registration mechanism (just your E-mail address) is necessary for discussion: How would you be getting follow-up messages if you're not on the list?  And E-mail clients may prefer Reply-To-List rather than Reply-All, which means even if people were CCing you, at some point you start missing discussion from others.

So given the choice between:

(1) getting rid of spam by restricting senders to members of the list (which, as you state, might lose people like you)

versus

(2) reducing spam for the 1500 members on the list (yet still lose you because you need to become a member of the list to see the responses from others),

THEN: in both cases we still wind up losing you (either you don't give your E-mail address to the list server or you're not included in the follow-up E-mails because you're not a member), ... YET in the latter case we reduce spam ...

THUS, cygwin should restrict sending to just the members because (1) it will reduce spam, and (2) we're still going to lose people like you who don't want to put their name on the list - regardless of which spam reduction mechanisms is chosen.

Make sense?

-FF

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Re: My delayed complaint about spam on this list

[Vince Rice]

> On Jun 4, 2018, at 2:30 PM, Frank Farance wrote:
> 
> I've seen a bunch of spam, and it's continued for a while (beyond my expectation that it would have already ended). 

Fortunately, no one's here to meet your expectations.

If you have issues with the lists, you should take to the right place. Hint: it isn't here.

See https://cygwin.com/lists.html, the bottom of the page.

> If you would like to reply to me, please send your response to me directly, DO NOT SEND TO THE LIST.

For someone who's "administered E-mail lists for two-plus decades," you don't seem to understand how they work.
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Re: My delayed complaint about spam on this list

[Jeffrey Altman]

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On 6/4/2018 4:13 PM, Frank Farance wrote:
> Second, as a mailing list admin myself, at some time we're going to have
> to deal with spam as some of the members E-mail systems will start
> tagging normal cygwin stuff as spam, which is the kind of stuff members
> don't have control over in medium-to-large organizations.  

My mail servers regularly categorize cygwin at cygwin.com mail as spam.

And then there is all of the mail that simply gets rejected because of
DMARC policies applied by the sender's domain.

> (1) getting rid of spam by restricting senders to members of the list
> (which, as you state, might lose people like you)
> 
> versus
> 
> (2) reducing spam for the 1500 members on the list (yet still lose you
> because you need to become a member of the list to see the responses
> from others),

There are other alternatives.

I'm a member of a few mailing lists that accept e-mails from non-list
members but only after the non-list member successfully accesses a URL
that is mailed to the sender's address.

Would something like that be possible for the cygwin lists?

Jeffrey Altman



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Re: My delayed complaint about spam on this list

[Duncan Roe]

On Mon, Jun 04, 2018 at 04:26:57PM -0400, Jeffrey Altman wrote:
>
> My mail servers regularly categorize cygwin at cygwin.com mail as spam.
>
> And then there is all of the mail that simply gets rejected because of
> DMARC policies applied by the sender's domain.
>
>
> There are other alternatives.
>
> I'm a member of a few mailing lists that accept e-mails from non-list
> members but only after the non-list member successfully accesses a URL
> that is mailed to the sender's address.
>
> Would something like that be possible for the cygwin lists?
>
> Jeffrey Altman
>
I'm a member of a list in which posts from non-members are moderated. Would that
be a possibility here? I realise it's an extra task for someone, but as it is we
are all wasting our time discarding spam. And there's no need for moderation to
be *prompt*

Cheers ... Duncan.

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Re: My delayed complaint about spam on this list

[cyg Simple]

On 6/4/2018 5:54 PM, Duncan Roe wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 04, 2018 at 04:26:57PM -0400, Jeffrey Altman wrote:
>>
>> My mail servers regularly categorize cygwin at cygwin.com mail as spam.
>>
>> And then there is all of the mail that simply gets rejected because of
>> DMARC policies applied by the sender's domain.
>>
>>
>> There are other alternatives.
>>
>> I'm a member of a few mailing lists that accept e-mails from non-list
>> members but only after the non-list member successfully accesses a URL
>> that is mailed to the sender's address.
>>
>> Would something like that be possible for the cygwin lists?
>>
>> Jeffrey Altman
>>
> I'm a member of a list in which posts from non-members are moderated. Would that
> be a possibility here? I realise it's an extra task for someone, but as it is we
> are all wasting our time discarding spam. And there's no need for moderation to
> be *prompt*
> 

When there was someone to manage the list moderation non-members were
moderated.  The moderator left the project.  If you wish to volunteer
send email to overseers at sourceware.org.

-- 
cyg Simple

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Re: My delayed complaint about spam on this list

[Erik Soderquist]

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Frank Farance wrote:
> Third, I believe a registration mechanism (just your E-mail address) is
> necessary for discussion: How would you be getting follow-up messages if
> you're not on the list?  And E-mail clients may prefer Reply-To-List rather
> than Reply-All, which means even if people were CCing you, at some point you
> start missing discussion from others.


I have seen many people (and have done this myself before I
subscribed) participate in the discussion of their specific topic on
the list without subscribing by watching the public archive of the
list for updates to their topics and crafting the response email
manually.  It is more complicated if you do need to reply, but for
many problem reports that have very simple/quick answers, watching the
public archive is more than sufficient for these people.

-- Erik

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Re: My delayed complaint about spam on this list

[Steven Penny]

On Tue, 5 Jun 2018 13:38:14, Erik Soderquist wrote:
> I have seen many people (and have done this myself before I
> subscribed) participate in the discussion of their specific topic on
> the list without subscribing by watching the public archive of the
> list for updates to their topics and crafting the response email
> manually.

Yep, I do this. I do not subscribe because I do not want my inbox flooded with
emails, and I couldnt figure out a sane way to only see the messages I care
about:

- http://webapps.stackexchange.com/q/54707/exclude-starred-messages
- http://webapps.stackexchange.com/q/55045/gmail-label-unread-count

So I wrote an Awk script that essentially invokes cURL with the right params to
reply to mailing list messages, without being subscribed:

http://github.com/svnpenn/tryst

If OP is suggesting people can only reply if they are subscribed, then I am not
a fan of that.


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Re: My delayed complaint about spam on this list

[Frank Farance]

On 2018-06-05 20:04, Steven Penny wrote:
> [...]
> If OP is suggesting people can only reply if they are subscribed, then I am not a fan of that.

No, I'm not suggesting that one must be subscribed, I'm pointing out that if one wants to have a back and forth discussion (in a practical sense), some kinda registration/subscription system is necessary.  What I like about the present format of this list is: it's just E-mail, there aren't bulletin board web interfaces to forces the fragmentation of the discussion into separate threads, with cygwin I can see the discussion threads based upon Subject line.

Someone suggested a moderator (or multiple moderators) that would approve messages from outsiders.  That sounds like the easiest approach because it anyone can write to the list and there would be just a short delay for those people who aren't subscribers, but the main benefit would be the lack of spam.

I'm not tied to any technology, and I'm happy to have heard some more discussion, which better informed me about some of the Use Cases I was unaware of.

So here's my question (and it assumes that there would be volunteer(s) to moderate):

Question: "Would a moderation system work where subscribers could send messages directly, but non-subscribers would need a moderator to approve the message?"

If that is acceptable, then the next step would be to find a couple volunteers.

Your thoughts?

-FF

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Re: My delayed complaint about spam on this list

[Steven Penny]

On Tue, 5 Jun 2018 20:18:59, Frank Farance wrote:
> No, I'm not suggesting that one must be subscribed, I'm pointing out that if
> one wants to have a back and forth discussion (in a practical sense), some
> kinda registration/subscription system is necessary.

No, its not? did not you read my post? i have a tool that allow replies without
being subscribed:

http://github.com/svnpenn/tryst

> Someone suggested a moderator (or multiple moderators) that would approve
> messages from outsiders.

ok cool, but whos going to do it? are you volunteering? if so you should email
the proper group as indicated here:

http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-06/msg00035.html

> That sounds like the easiest approach because it anyone can write to the list
> and there would be just a short delay for those people who aren't subscribers,
> but the main benefit would be the lack of spam.

No. I am not interested in a "short delay". As I am sure others are not either.
Why should we be penalized because we dont want our inboxes flooded?

> I'm not tied to any technology, and I'm happy to have heard some more
> discussion, which better informed me about some of the Use Cases I was unaware
> of.

ive seen plenty of discussion already - it seems several are against or strongly
against:

- http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-06/msg00043.html
- http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-06/msg00019.html
- http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2018-06/msg00017.html

> So here's my question (and it assumes that there would be volunteer(s) to
> moderate):

so i guess that means you arent volunteering?

> Question: "Would a moderation system work where subscribers could send
> messages directly, but non-subscribers would need a moderator to approve the
> message?"

No.

> If that is acceptable,

Its not.

> then the next step would be to find a couple volunteers.
> Your thoughts?

again, since you are championing this, it is odd that you yourself are not
volunteering.


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Re: My delayed complaint about spam on this list

[Eric Blake]

On 06/05/2018 07:18 PM, Frank Farance wrote:
> Someone suggested a moderator (or multiple moderators) that would 
> approve messages from outsiders.  That sounds like the easiest approach 
> because it anyone can write to the list and there would be just a short 
> delay for those people who aren't subscribers, but the main benefit 
> would be the lack of spam.

The GNU mailing lists use a mailman instance, and many of them are set 
up to use a spam filter front end coupled with a human moderator that 
must whitelist ALL first-time posters (whether or not the poster is 
subscribed; subscription is not a prerequisite), and I help moderate 
some of those lists. Once you've been whitelisted, further messages from 
you have no delay unless they are overlarge or trigger the spam filter.

Cygwin lists are hosted by ezmlm-idx, not mailman, so I'm not sure what 
knobs it has, and whether those knobs are similar to what mailman 
provides.  So I'm not even sure if it is technically possible to make a 
change to a moderator queue.  But as long as we're requesting changes, 
I'd ALSO like to get rid of the reply-to munging, as reply-to-all is the 
only sane policy for a list that allows posts from non-subscribers 
(that's another topic that has been frequently posted on this list). 
HOWEVER, per https://sourceware.org/lists.html#faq, this list is run by 
sourceware.org overseers, and they don't read THIS list, so complaining 
HERE won't make a single difference.  If you want a new list policy, you 
must first contact overseers and convince them to make the change.

> 
> So here's my question (and it assumes that there would be volunteer(s) 
> to moderate):

Since I already moderate various GNU lists, adding a Cygwin moderation 
queue to my plate is no big deal, so I'd volunteer (provided that the 
technology for moderating can be managed completely by email, rather 
than requiring me to periodically visit a webpage without an email 
reminder).

> 
> Question: "Would a moderation system work where subscribers could send 
> messages directly, but non-subscribers would need a moderator to approve 
> the message?"

Even if the overseers can't turn on human moderation, they are also the 
right people to complain to about spam blocking not being effective enough.

-- 
Eric Blake, Principal Software Engineer
Red Hat, Inc.           +1-919-301-3266
Virtualization:  qemu.org | libvirt.org

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Re: My delayed complaint about spam on this list

[Andrey Repin]

Greetings, Steven Penny!

> On Tue, 5 Jun 2018 20:18:59, Frank Farance wrote:
>> No, I'm not suggesting that one must be subscribed, I'm pointing out that if
>> one wants to have a back and forth discussion (in a practical sense), some
>> kinda registration/subscription system is necessary.

> No, its not? did not you read my post? i have a tool that allow replies without
> being subscribed:

You don't need any complicated tools.
Just reply to your own message(s).

Assuming your mail client is sane, it will do to contain the thread
fragmentation to a minimum.


-- 
With best regards,
Andrey Repin
Wednesday, June 6, 2018 18:48:18

Sorry for my terrible english...


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