* Re: Cygwin X11 Server slow performance
2018-04-30 4:48 ` Paul Sheer
@ 2018-04-30 10:22 ` Marco Atzeri
2018-04-30 13:20 ` Andrey Repin
2018-06-05 0:24 ` L A Walsh
2 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Marco Atzeri @ 2018-04-30 10:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cygwin, Paul Sheer
On 4/30/2018 6:48 AM, Paul Sheer wrote:
>>
>> Cygwin/X is most definitely being used, and this might help:
>>
>> https://x.cygwin.com/docs/ug/using-shared-memory.html
>>
>
>
> Being used? I find that very difficult to believe.
>
> There are a large number of usability problems I have found and I have only
> been using Cygwin for a couple of hours. It's does not seem ready for
> release yet IMO.
as we are using by more than one decade
and the first 64 bit version was released in 2009
https://sourceware.org/ml/cygwin-announce/2009-12/msg00027.html
we are sure that it is usable.
> 1. There seems no way to map particular important keys. For instance
> Left-Alt-Tab should be configurable to either Windows or X11 depending
> on the users preference, and this configuration should be available in a menu
> somewhere easy to find -- but it has no configuration menus on the top bar
> like normal applications.
>
> 2. it is extremely difficult to work out that
> "C:\cygwin64\bin>XWin.exe -ac -listen tcp" is the appropriate command
> to type to get the server to serve a remote Linux machine. This seems
> like a common use case -- so why "hide" this information?
It is not hidden.
It is an upstream setting, we are just using the default.
> 3. Forgets that you have your mouse button held down if you drag past
> the edge of the X screen. It should not let your mouse cursor out the
> X screen when you are dragging.
>
> 4. Is there no option like XWin.exe -ac -listen 10.12.21.0/24 to
> restrict connections to a particular network?? This seems very easy to
> implement and solves the security problem. It might be in a menu also.
>
> 5. The performance issue is not related to the shared memory problem.
> My text editor has multiple ways of rendering 8x13bold (font-struct font-set and
> pixmap) and they are all slow. XMing is also slow (I have notified
> Colin Harrison
> but even after a year he cant fix it).
Than probably something on your machine is interfering.
It will be difficult to debug without further info from your side.
> This latency may be because you are not using Windows accelerated
> rectangle copies, or it may be because you have not disabled the
> Nagle algorithm for latency.
>
>
> 6. cygserver-config does not work. It gives:
It works. You just seems to have the wrong expectation.
>
> [[[
>
> psheer@psheer-HP ~
> $ cygserver-config
> Overwrite existing /etc/cygserver.conf file? (yes/no) yes
> Generating /etc/cygserver.conf file
> chown: changing ownership of '/etc/cygserver.conf': Permission denied
>
> Warning: The following function requires administrator privileges!
>
> Do you want to install cygserver as service?
> (Say "no" if it's already installed as service) (yes/no) yes
> /usr/bin/cygrunsrv: Given path doesn't point to a valid executable
> Try `/usr/bin/cygrunsrv --help' for more information.
>
> Installation of cygserver as service failed. Please check the
> error messages you got. They might give a clue why it failed.
>
> A good start is either you don't have administrator privileges
> or a missing cygrunsrv binary. Please check for both.
>
> ]]]
>
>
> 7. Surely the above program can check if it is a privilege problem
> or not and simply tell you? Why should I have to read through
> documentation to enable a simple "checkbox" feature when it
> can only be On or Off and there are no other options???
>
> 8. cygwin seems to have the concept of an administrator, but there
> is no root user or way to switch to a root user using su. If these things
> exist, then they should be there by default and work as default so as
> not to require the user read documentation. Is my default user the
> administrator? It should be -- it is a home PC. I can't even tell what
> the intended behavior is. It keeps asking me for a password for
> psheer but I have never set a password on this PC.
Windows has the concept of administrator.
Cygwin runs on top of cygwin and lives in that concept.
> 9. There is no package management that works properly. The
> install program setup-x86_64.exe seems to re-download things
> that are already downloaded. It is kludgy and everything is ambiguous.
> It seems unclear what is a label telling you the state, or a button telling
> you to switch to a state. Surely it is easy to make a Gtk or Qt interface
> for this package manager?
May be the package manager is not intuitive for you, but it works.
I do not find the changes from every version of MS Office release
intuitive, and I need to re-learn the interface, but Office works.
> How do you know what a "minimal" set of packages is?
The minimal is the base Category, that is offered as default on first
installation.
>
> Do I have to install everything?
Why ? The FAQ recommends against such solution.
https://cygwin.com/faq.html#faq.setup.everything
Just install what you need to use.
> If I install everything does it cache what it has downloaded so
> as not to download everything again?
>
> Normal windows packages do not require you ask any of these
> questions -- the install interface makes it clear.
>
>
> 10. After trying to install more packages I now get: "The procedure
> entry point __memcpy_chk could not be located in the dynamic link
> library cygwin1.dll"
it seems you need to reinstall the last "cygwin" package,
as __memcpy_chk was added in last release.
You probably ran an upgrade with some cygwin process still
running and the cygwin1.dll was not properly update.
> 11. Surely the Start menu should have a cygwin-packages menu
> item to manage package, get dependencies correct, and verify
> the integrity of an installation.
>
> 12. Your documentation is extremely strange. For instance
> you have "https://x.cygwin.com/docs/ug/using-clipboard-integration.html".
> Why would any user ever read about clipboard integration???
> The clipboard problems and the relationship between X11 and Windows
> have been solved many years ago. This is evident from the fact that
> Ubuntu, when installed under Oracle Virtual box, does Copy-n-Paste between
> Gtk and Windows and Unicode copy-paste even works perfectly
> in both directions. So copy and paste should "just work". Any configuration
> should be in menus anyway.
>
> 13. Why do some binaries run on the command line and do nothing
> and show no error??? Unix never does this.
You have some broken dependencies as #10.
May be more that just only the cygwin1.dll
If you cripple your Unix installation, also that does not work.
If you provide the cygcheck.out as requested on
http://cygwin.com/problems.html
we could help you.
> I hope this all helps.
>
> I'll be uninstalling cygwin now because I can't waist any more time on it.
Not very useful for us, and I doubt for you.
But we can help you, starting with the cygcheck.out analysis if you
provide it.
Regards
Marco
--
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Cygwin X11 Server slow performance
2018-04-30 4:48 ` Paul Sheer
2018-04-30 10:22 ` Marco Atzeri
@ 2018-04-30 13:20 ` Andrey Repin
2018-06-05 0:24 ` L A Walsh
2 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Andrey Repin @ 2018-04-30 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Paul Sheer, cygwin
[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8, Size: 4678 bytes --]
Greetings, Paul Sheer!
> 6. cygserver-config does not work. It gives:
> [[[
> psheer@psheer-HP ~
> $ cygserver-config
> Overwrite existing /etc/cygserver.conf file? (yes/no) yes
> Generating /etc/cygserver.conf file
> chown: changing ownership of '/etc/cygserver.conf': Permission denied
> Warning: The following function requires administrator privileges!
> Do you want to install cygserver as service?
> (Say "no" if it's already installed as service) (yes/no) yes
> /usr/bin/cygrunsrv: Given path doesn't point to a valid executable
> Try `/usr/bin/cygrunsrv --help' for more information.
> Installation of cygserver as service failed. Please check the
> error messages you got. They might give a clue why it failed.
> A good start is either you don't have administrator privileges
> or a missing cygrunsrv binary. Please check for both.
> ]]]
This is expected. And the script outright warns you.
> 7. Surely the above program can check if it is a privilege problem
> or not and simply tell you? Why should I have to read through
> documentation to enable a simple "checkbox" feature when it
> can only be On or Off and there are no other options???
Contrary to *NIX, Windows runs from granular permissions system, and a user
may have the rights to install service even if they are not a member of
Administrators group.
> 8. cygwin seems to have the concept of an administrator, but there
> is no root user or way to switch to a root user using su.
You expect Windows to be Linux/UNIX, but it is not.
It has its own, much more usable permission system, and no God User as a
concept.
> If these things exist, then they should be there by default and work as
> default so as not to require the user read documentation.
wat
> Is my default user the administrator?
Even if it is, your current session may not have the permissions and would
require an elevation. YOU should know.
> It should be -- it is a home PC.
"Home PC" is a marketing joke.
> I can't even tell what the intended behavior is. It keeps asking me for a
> password for psheer but I have never set a password on this PC.
How could it know?
> 9. There is no package management that works properly. The
> install program setup-x86_64.exe seems to re-download things
> that are already downloaded. It is kludgy and everything is ambiguous.
> It seems unclear what is a label telling you the state, or a button telling
> you to switch to a state. Surely it is easy to make a Gtk or Qt interface
> for this package manager?
Sure, if it's such a simple task for you - go ahead. Keep in mind that it must
remain a single binary a user can just download and run.
> How do you know what a "minimal" set of packages is?
> Do I have to install everything?
> If I install everything does it cache what it has downloaded so
> as not to download everything again?
> Normal windows packages do not require you ask any of these
> questions -- the install interface makes it clear.
Cygwin setup does work exactly the same way - you just click "next" until you
get a working system.
Would that system be able to solve YOUR SPECIFIC problem, remains to be seen.
> 10. After trying to install more packages I now get: "The procedure
> entry point __memcpy_chk could not be located in the dynamic link
> library cygwin1.dll"
As advised, you should have stopped all Cygwin processes before attempting an
upgrade.
> 11. Surely the Start menu should have a cygwin-packages menu
> item to manage package, get dependencies correct, and verify
> the integrity of an installation.
You're more than welcome to submit and maintain such tools.
> Ubuntu, when installed under Oracle Virtual box, does Copy-n-Paste between
> Gtk and Windows and Unicode copy-paste even works perfectly
That's VirtualBox does, not X, or Windows…
> 13. Why do some binaries run on the command line and do nothing
> and show no error??? Unix never does this.
If you break your ld-linux.so, *NIX do the same.
> I hope this all helps.
Hardly. A lot of expectations (to put it mildly) from a volunteer-maintained
project.
> I'll be uninstalling cygwin now because I can't waist any more time on it.
You could have done so without wasting our time with this message.
--
With best regards,
Andrey Repin
Monday, April 30, 2018 16:00:53
Sorry for my terrible english...\0ТÒÐÐ¥\a&ö&ÆVÒ\a&W\x06÷'G3¢\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x06‡GG\x03¢òö7–wv–âæ6öÒ÷\a&ö&ÆV×2æ‡FÖÀФd\x15\x13¢\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x06‡GG\x03¢òö7–wv–âæ6öÒöf\x17\x12ðФFö7VÖVçF\x17F–öã¢\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x06‡GG\x03¢òö7–wv–âæ6öÒöFö72æ‡FÖÀÐ¥Vç7V'67&–&R\x06–æfó¢\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x06‡GG\x03¢òö7–wv–âæ6öÒöÖÂò7Vç7V'67&–&R×6–×\x06ÆPÐ Ð
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Cygwin X11 Server slow performance
2018-04-30 4:48 ` Paul Sheer
2018-04-30 10:22 ` Marco Atzeri
2018-04-30 13:20 ` Andrey Repin
@ 2018-06-05 0:24 ` L A Walsh
2018-06-05 14:50 ` Paul Sheer
2 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: L A Walsh @ 2018-06-05 0:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Paul Sheer; +Cc: cygwin
Paul Sheer wrote:
>> Cygwin/X is most definitely being used, and this might help:
>>
>> https://x.cygwin.com/docs/ug/using-shared-memory.html
>>
>
>
> Being used? I find that very difficult to believe.
----
What type of PC and network do you have?
I've been using Cygwin since Windows XP days, and while it isn't as
fast as a native linux port, it IS running on top of windows.
You didn't say -- are you running your Xwindows remotely
or locally?
For me, I run the server locally, but many of the programs I
run are on linux.
> There are a large number of usability problems I have found and I have only
> been using Cygwin for a couple of hours. It's does not seem ready for
> release yet IMO.
----
Too late, it was released over a decade ago. It's maintained by
volunteers. You seem to have very high expectations of a *free product*.
Today, even most paid products wouldn't meed up with your standards.
>
> 1. There seems no way to map particular important keys. For instance
> Left-Alt-Tab should be configurable to either Windows or X11 depending
> on the users preference, and this configuration should be available in a menu
> somewhere easy to find -- but it has no configuration menus on the top bar
> like normal applications.
----
Maybe you aren't familiar with 'X'. X is just a graphical
transport. It doesn't have menus unless some other program puts them up.
Try 'X' on linux -- running it from startX from a console and see
how easy it is to use.
>
> 2. it is extremely difficult to work out that
> "C:\cygwin64\bin>XWin.exe -ac -listen tcp" is the appropriate command
> to type to get the server to serve a remote Linux machine. This seems
> like a common use case -- so why "hide" this information?
---
Did you look in the start menu as you would with any other
application running on windows? Go look at the "Cygwin" or "Cygwin-X"
folders. The cygwin folder has all the documentation pointers you seem
to have missed, and the cygwin-X folder looks like it starts up the
desktop of your choice -- without you having to type in anything.
There's also a link for starting up the XWin Server
> 3. Forgets that you have your mouse button held down if you drag past
> the edge of the X screen. It should not let your mouse cursor out the
> X screen when you are dragging.
---
I always start mine in multi-window mode so the windows
intermix with normal windows, so I don't see that problem.
> 4. Is there no option like XWin.exe -ac -listen 10.12.21.0/24 to
> restrict connections to a particular network?? This seems very easy to
> implement and solves the security problem. It might be in a menu also.
---
Cygwin repackages open-source packages. Specific program
features and suggestions should be addressed to those maintaining
those packages OUTSIDE of the Cygwin project. The Cygwin maintainers
focus on porting those existing packages so they work on windows.
> 5. The performance issue is not related to the shared memory problem.
> My text editor has multiple ways of rendering 8x13bold (font-struct font-set and
> pixmap) and they are all slow. XMing is also slow (I have notified
> Colin Harrison
> but even after a year he cant fix it).
----
So it's not just Cygwin. Maybe your graphics card is slow?
What is your DISPLAY set to?
localhost:0? or similar?
>
> This latency may be because you are not using Windows accelerated
> rectangle copies, or it may be because you have not disabled the
> Nagle algorithm for latency.
---
Cygwin uses the same network as all programs in windows.
It doesn't re-implement the network stack -- If it is slow, it's
likely because it is slow in windows.
> 6. cygserver-config does not work. It gives:
> Warning: The following function requires administrator privileges!
> A good start is either you don't have administrator privileges
> or a missing cygrunsrv binary. Please check for both.
> 7. Surely the above program can check if it is a privilege problem
> or not and simply tell you?
---
How? How many ways should it try to analyze the situation?
MS doesn't document many of their interfaces. It is not always easy
to figure out why something doesn't work -- EVEN microsoft can't
figure out things. I submitted problems on Windows 7 about starting my
event log. No one at MS monitoring the user or tech forums were able
to fix it -- it happens to multiple people. The only fix MS suggest now,
is to upgrade to Win10. IF MS doesn't understand how their OS works, how
do you expect anyone else to?
> Why should I have to read through
> documentation to enable a simple "checkbox" feature when it
> can only be On or Off and there are no other options???
---
It's a microsoft feature -- complain to them. Cygwin cannot
overcome all the problems in windows.
>
> 8. cygwin seems to have the concept of an administrator,
---
Actually windows does.
> Is my default user the administrator? It should be -- it is a home PC.
> I can't even tell what
> the intended behavior is. It keeps asking me for a password for
> psheer but I have never set a password on this PC.
----
THAT's part of your problem. Several things won't work
correctly in windows if you don't have a password set. If you don't
know how windows works, PLEASE don't expect to install a program on
Windows and it to solve every problem that the underlying OS has.
If you don't know who or what your administrator account in windows
is, you are going to have a hard time installing most programs.
Cygwin provides a unix/linux type environment. But it sounds like you
have no familiarity with linux or unix or windows. Cygwin
isn't for you. It's for people who want to run free software that
is user-written and supported, for *free*. It doesn't have support.
It isn't known for being user-friendly, but neither is most software
these days.
You might be happier buying an apple computer. I don't know
about now, but they tend to provide everything you need including a
virtual companion to hold your hand getting things to work.
>
> 9. There is no package management that works properly. The
> install program setup-x86_64.exe seems to re-download things
> that are already downloaded. It is kludgy and everything is ambiguous.
> It seems unclear what is a label telling you the state, or a button telling
> you to switch to a state. Surely it is easy to make a Gtk or Qt interface
> for this package manager?
----
Nope. Gtk and Qt don't easily run on Windows -- there are ports
and there are the versions that run in cygwin, but those versions require
that cygwin already be installed, creating a catch22 problem.
> How do you know what a "minimal" set of packages is?
---
Whatever the default selection is when you start setup --
usually the BASE packages.
>
> Do I have to install everything?
---
>
> If I install everything does it cache what it has downloaded so
> as not to download everything again?
---
It can. Problem is it only downloads what you are installing
and even then, what you installed may be updated and need to be downloaded
again.
> 10. After trying to install more packages I now get: "The procedure
> entry point __memcpy_chk could not be located in the dynamic link
> library cygwin1.dll"
---
This sounds like a disk corruption problem. What version of
windows are you running on what hardware?
> 11. Surely the Start menu should have a cygwin-packages menu
> item to manage package, get dependencies correct, and verify
> the integrity of an installation.
---
Windows doesn't. Where do you get your expectations?
> 13. Why do some binaries run on the command line and do nothing
> and show no error??? Unix never does this.
---
It absolutely does this. The default on Unix was to say
nothing unless there was an error. Most unix programs say very little
unless you ask them to. Do you have any specific examples? Many of
the binaries on cygwin come from the exact same source as is on linux.
(there really isn't any unix anymore)...
> I hope this all helps.
----
Not really. You seem to be thinking cygwin should provide
support. They have enough problems getting all the packages to
run. If you want to provide improvements, please do. But expecting
them to when they can't even support a soft-mount on MS, because they
turned it into a duplicate softlink function, is really a bit too much.
> I'll be uninstalling cygwin now because I can't waist any more time on it.
---
You'll be happier, believe me. It's not for you. Try getting an
Macintosh -- it's more likely to provide all the comforts you are seeking.
Cheers --- and BTW, I don't work on cygwin, I merely complain about it, er,
I mean use it (and have for over a decade).
--
Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html
FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Cygwin X11 Server slow performance
2018-06-05 0:24 ` L A Walsh
@ 2018-06-05 14:50 ` Paul Sheer
2018-06-05 16:00 ` L A Walsh
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Paul Sheer @ 2018-06-05 14:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: L A Walsh; +Cc: cygwin
> Maybe you aren't familiar with 'X'. X is just a graphical
> transport. It doesn't have menus unless some other program puts them up.
> Try 'X' on linux -- running it from startX from a console and see
> how easy it is to use.
>
NetSarang commercial X server has configuration menus to set keyboard
mappings, cut-paste behavior, and various other settings in a user
friendly manner. It has orders of magnitude faster performance in a
side-by-side comparison using XEmacs Motif as a test application
displayed remotely over a 1GB LAN.
But that fact that you are using the reason "X is just a graphical
transport" as an excuse makes me realize it is impossible to have a
conversation with you.
Paul
--
Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Cygwin X11 Server slow performance
2018-06-05 14:50 ` Paul Sheer
@ 2018-06-05 16:00 ` L A Walsh
2018-06-05 16:19 ` Paul Sheer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: L A Walsh @ 2018-06-05 16:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Paul Sheer; +Cc: cygwin
Paul Sheer wrote:
>> Maybe you aren't familiar with 'X'. X is just a graphical
>> transport. It doesn't have menus unless some other program puts them up.
>> Try 'X' on linux -- running it from startX from a console and see
>> how easy it is to use.
>>
>
>
> NetSarang commercial X server has configuration menus to set keyboard
> mappings, cut-paste behavior, and various other settings in a user
> friendly manner. It has orders of magnitude faster performance in a
> side-by-side comparison using XEmacs Motif as a test application
> displayed remotely over a 1GB LAN.
---
That's fine, but how much does NetSarang cost for 10-15 years
of commercial support & upgrades?
I use Gvim over a Gtk interface. The fact that you are
comfortable with a 20 yr-old graphical interface, that was only
reasonably supported by commercial Unix vendors puts you in a
different class of users -- which was why I suggested an Apple
based OS in the first place.
> But that fact that you are using the reason "X is just a graphical
> transport" as an excuse makes me realize it is impossible to have a
> conversation with you.
---
From my perspective, that's what it is, not too many
programs are built on the Xlib et al. widget set. I tune my programs
and I/O more for file I/O and know my toolsets enough to know that
they don't do with small packets, but had file I/O tuned at
125megaB (mega=10**6) writes and 119megaB reads over a 1GB LAN
and now get 600+MB(M=2**20) reads and 275+ writes over a 8Gb LAN
(10 in name, but lose 20% to bus speed). My speeds now, in file
I/O and in gvim are limited by CPU speed as Gvim does near full
syntax parsing for error and color display.
Realize though, that the fact that you prefer a commercial
emacs version to a free X11+gtk Gvim sorta puts you more in a
commercial apple class which is another reason I pointed at
Apple based computers. Also, even the fact that you prefer emacs
+ motif...makes it less likely you'll be happy with something
that requires more work on the part of the user to tune for the
OS + hardware; again=> apple.
I hope you appreciate my input, it certainly wasn't from a fanboy
of any of the OS's, point of view, but you've indicated you want
Cadillac features and support. I suggest and hope you find what
you are looking for.
(M=2**30) writes with
--
Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html
FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/
Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Cygwin X11 Server slow performance
2018-06-05 16:00 ` L A Walsh
@ 2018-06-05 16:19 ` Paul Sheer
2018-06-05 20:24 ` Marco Atzeri
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Paul Sheer @ 2018-06-05 16:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: L A Walsh; +Cc: cygwin
20 years ago Linux cult members were using the same
"blame-the-user"-type arguments.
Nothing has changed.
I don't use Emacs. I only gave it as an easily-testable example.
Try: apt-get install xemacs ; export DISPLAY=windows.mylan:0.0 ;
xemacs
Professionally, I have been a C++ developer for 20 years, and I am
also a published author:
https://www.amazon.com/LINUX-Rute-Users-Tutorial-Exposition/dp/0130333514
I don't need to do ANY analysis or tests to see that the Cygwin and
Mingw X Servers have abhorrent latency problems: you press a key and
you wait 0.25 seconds for the page to render. That's like the speed
of a page render over 9600 baud terminal. X Servers were NEVER this
slow even in the 1990s.
Why would I sit and do a mathematical analysis, when I can simply
uninstall it and install something that actually works???
Why would I waist my time trying to fix the problem, when cygwin
mailing list respondents refuse to admit the problem exists???
You are like a Flat-Earther the way you argue.
Paul
On 6/5/18, L A Walsh <cygwin@tlinx.org> wrote:
> Paul Sheer wrote:
>>> Maybe you aren't familiar with 'X'. X is just a graphical
>>> transport. It doesn't have menus unless some other program puts them
>>> up.
>>> Try 'X' on linux -- running it from startX from a console and see
>>> how easy it is to use.
>>>
>>
>>
>> NetSarang commercial X server has configuration menus to set keyboard
>> mappings, cut-paste behavior, and various other settings in a user
>> friendly manner. It has orders of magnitude faster performance in a
>> side-by-side comparison using XEmacs Motif as a test application
>> displayed remotely over a 1GB LAN.
> ---
> That's fine, but how much does NetSarang cost for 10-15 years
> of commercial support & upgrades?
>
> I use Gvim over a Gtk interface. The fact that you are
> comfortable with a 20 yr-old graphical interface, that was only
> reasonably supported by commercial Unix vendors puts you in a
> different class of users -- which was why I suggested an Apple
> based OS in the first place.
>
>
>> But that fact that you are using the reason "X is just a graphical
>> transport" as an excuse makes me realize it is impossible to have a
>> conversation with you.
> ---
> From my perspective, that's what it is, not too many
> programs are built on the Xlib et al. widget set. I tune my programs
> and I/O more for file I/O and know my toolsets enough to know that
> they don't do with small packets, but had file I/O tuned at
> 125megaB (mega=10**6) writes and 119megaB reads over a 1GB LAN
> and now get 600+MB(M=2**20) reads and 275+ writes over a 8Gb LAN
> (10 in name, but lose 20% to bus speed). My speeds now, in file
> I/O and in gvim are limited by CPU speed as Gvim does near full
> syntax parsing for error and color display.
>
> Realize though, that the fact that you prefer a commercial
> emacs version to a free X11+gtk Gvim sorta puts you more in a
> commercial apple class which is another reason I pointed at
> Apple based computers. Also, even the fact that you prefer emacs
> + motif...makes it less likely you'll be happy with something
> that requires more work on the part of the user to tune for the
> OS + hardware; again=> apple.
>
> I hope you appreciate my input, it certainly wasn't from a fanboy
> of any of the OS's, point of view, but you've indicated you want
> Cadillac features and support. I suggest and hope you find what
> you are looking for.
>
>
> (M=2**30) writes with
>
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