Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Carlos O'Donell]

Overseers,

We would like to create a libc-help@sourceware.org mailing list for the 
GNU libc project. The libc-help mailing list would be aimed at 
developers searching for help in building or using GNU Libc, similar in 
intent to gcc-help.

Ryan and myself are offering to be list moderators for libc-help and 
additionally libc-alpha. We would move off-topic emails from libc-alpha 
to libc-help or libc-ports.

What should be our next step?

Cheers,
Carlos.
-- 
Carlos O'Donell
CodeSourcery
carlos@codesourcery.com
(650) 331-3385 x716

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 03:22:39PM -0500, Carlos O'Donell wrote:
> Overseers,
>
> We would like to create a libc-help@sourceware.org mailing list for the GNU 
> libc project. The libc-help mailing list would be aimed at developers 
> searching for help in building or using GNU Libc, similar in intent to 
> gcc-help.
>
> Ryan and myself are offering to be list moderators for libc-help and 
> additionally libc-alpha. We would move off-topic emails from libc-alpha to 
> libc-help or libc-ports.
>
> What should be our next step?

I think we'd need to see agreement from Roland and/or Ulrich.

cgf

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Roland McGrath]

I endorse the new libc-help list.  Making libc-alpha into a moderated list
is contingent on Ryan and Carlos manifestly tending its moderation queue on
a daily basis.  Since they've agreed to that responsibility, I am happy to
have the list become moderated.


Thanks,
Roland

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Christopher Faylor]

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 03:45:43PM -0800, Roland McGrath wrote:
>I endorse the new libc-help list.  Making libc-alpha into a moderated list
>is contingent on Ryan and Carlos manifestly tending its moderation queue on
>a daily basis.  Since they've agreed to that responsibility, I am happy to
>have the list become moderated.

Sorry.  I'm a little confused.

So, this would make libc-alpha into a moderated list and introduce an
unmoderated libc-help, right?

cgf

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Roland McGrath]

> So, this would make libc-alpha into a moderated list and introduce an
> unmoderated libc-help, right?

Correct.


Thanks,
Roland

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Andrew Pinski]

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 3:54 PM, Christopher Faylor
<cgf-use-the-mailinglist-please@sourceware.org> wrote:
>  Sorry.  I'm a little confused.
>
>  So, this would make libc-alpha into a moderated list and introduce an
>  unmoderated libc-help, right?

Aren't you making developing glibc harder and not easier?

This seems like a stupid idea from an free source point of view but oh well.

-- Pinski who would like all mailing lists opened

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Ryan S. Arnold]

On Thu, 2008-02-14 at 17:57 -0800, Andrew Pinski wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 3:54 PM, Christopher Faylor
> <cgf-use-the-mailinglist-please@sourceware.org> wrote:
> >  Sorry.  I'm a little confused.
> >
> >  So, this would make libc-alpha into a moderated list and introduce an
> >  unmoderated libc-help, right?
> 
> Aren't you making developing glibc harder and not easier?

Andrew,

Quite the opposite.  Currently those trying to learn GLIBC development
and those trying to learn the glibc configure/make/install system are
kicked to the curb and never come back.

Our intention for 'moderation' is to simply guide the non-development
related questions to the libc-help mailing list.

I don't think that any moderation that Carlos and I do will be any more
harsh than that which currently exists.  I certainly don't intend to
filter any emails.

Regards,

Ryan

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Andrew Pinski]

On 2/14/08, Ryan S. Arnold <rsa@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>  I don't think that any moderation that Carlos and I do will be any more
>  harsh than that which currently exists.  I certainly don't intend to
>  filter any emails.

Maybe my point is that GCC does not have this issue, why does glibc?
glibc already has a private email list, why does it need another one?

That is my main point.  Nothing else.  I trust you won't filter emails
but my feeling of being moderated is just wrong.

-- Pinski

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 02:53:30AM -0800, Andrew Pinski wrote:
>On 2/14/08, Ryan S. Arnold <rsa@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>>  I don't think that any moderation that Carlos and I do will be any more
>>  harsh than that which currently exists.  I certainly don't intend to
>>  filter any emails.
>
>Maybe my point is that GCC does not have this issue, why does glibc?
>glibc already has a private email list, why does it need another one?

Are you referring to libc-hacker, Andrew?  If so, that sounds like a good
question to me.  Maybe libc-alpha should just be retired?

cgf

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Daniel Jacobowitz]

On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 10:00:13AM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> Are you referring to libc-hacker, Andrew?  If so, that sounds like a good
> question to me.  Maybe libc-alpha should just be retired?

The original plan seems reasonable to me.  Please don't retire
libc-alpha; it's the only place that outside contributors can send
patches.

-- 
Daniel Jacobowitz
CodeSourcery

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 10:05:45AM -0500, Daniel Jacobowitz wrote:
>On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 10:00:13AM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> Are you referring to libc-hacker, Andrew?  If so, that sounds like a good
>> question to me.  Maybe libc-alpha should just be retired?
>
>The original plan seems reasonable to me.  Please don't retire
>libc-alpha; it's the only place that outside contributors can send
>patches.

It is still odd for there to be two moderated developer-related lists
for one project.

cgf

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Carlos O'Donell]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 10:05:45AM -0500, Daniel Jacobowitz wrote:
>> On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 10:00:13AM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>> Are you referring to libc-hacker, Andrew?  If so, that sounds like a good
>>> question to me.  Maybe libc-alpha should just be retired?
>> The original plan seems reasonable to me.  Please don't retire
>> libc-alpha; it's the only place that outside contributors can send
>> patches.
> 
> It is still odd for there to be two moderated developer-related lists
> for one project.

The culture around the GNU C Library is odd :-)

Cheers,
Carlos.
-- 
Carlos O'Donell
CodeSourcery
carlos@codesourcery.com
(650) 331-3385 x716

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Ulrich Drepper]

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Christopher Faylor wrote:
> Are you referring to libc-hacker, Andrew?  If so, that sounds like a good
> question to me.  Maybe libc-alpha should just be retired?

No.  libc-hacker is for the people doing the actual work.  libc-alpha is
for feedback on the current development code by other people.

- --
➧ Ulrich Drepper ➧ Red Hat, Inc. ➧ 444 Castro St ➧ Mountain View, CA ❖
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Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Ulrich Drepper]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> It is still odd for there to be two moderated developer-related lists
> for one project.

libc-hcker is not moderated.  It's closed to non-subscribers.  Big
difference.

- --
➧ Ulrich Drepper ➧ Red Hat, Inc. ➧ 444 Castro St ➧ Mountain View, CA ❖
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Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Andrew Pinski]

On 2/15/08, Ulrich Drepper <drepper@redhat.com> wrote:
> libc-hcker is not moderated.  It's closed to non-subscribers.  Big
>  difference.

And this is the whole issue why have a closed list for an free source
project, that just seems wrong.

> No.  libc-hacker is for the people doing the actual work.  libc-alpha is
> for feedback on the current development code by other people.

This attitude is why some folks don't contribute at all to glibc.
What is actual work because I see so many more patches on libc-alpha
than libc-hacker.

-- Pinski

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 07:10:13AM -0800, Ulrich Drepper wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> Are you referring to libc-hacker, Andrew?  If so, that sounds like a good
>> question to me.  Maybe libc-alpha should just be retired?
>
>No.  libc-hacker is for the people doing the actual work.  libc-alpha is
>for feedback on the current development code by other people.

Ok.  I'm not going to second-guess project leaders.

I'll try to get to this over the weekend.  Setting up a new mailing list
is trivial but I can never remember how to switch an existing mailing
list to moderated.

Does anyone in overseers have a cookbook for this by any chance?

cgf

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Christopher Faylor]

On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 01:48:36PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 07:10:13AM -0800, Ulrich Drepper wrote:
>>Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>> Are you referring to libc-hacker, Andrew?  If so, that sounds like a good
>>> question to me.  Maybe libc-alpha should just be retired?
>>
>>No.  libc-hacker is for the people doing the actual work.  libc-alpha is
>>for feedback on the current development code by other people.
>
>Ok.  I'm not going to second-guess project leaders.
>
>I'll try to get to this over the weekend.  Setting up a new mailing list
>is trivial but I can never remember how to switch an existing mailing
>list to moderated.
>
>Does anyone in overseers have a cookbook for this by any chance?

I almost have this ready to go but I have a question about the
moderation of libc-alpha.  As far as I can tell, being a moderator means
getting every message that will be sent to the mailing list so that it
can be approved.  I can add extra people but should I keep Ulrich in the
list too?

Ulrich do you want to even see these messages?  If not, I'll remove you
as a moderator.

cgf

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Ryan S. Arnold]

On Sat, 2008-02-23 at 17:16 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
> I almost have this ready to go but I have a question about the
> moderation of libc-alpha.  As far as I can tell, being a moderator means
> getting every message that will be sent to the mailing list so that it
> can be approved.  I can add extra people but should I keep Ulrich in the
> list too?
> 
> Ulrich do you want to even see these messages?  If not, I'll remove you
> as a moderator.

Perhaps full moderation is only necessary for those who are not
subscribed?

Ryan S. Arnold

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Christopher Faylor]

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 07:01:11PM -0600, Ryan S. Arnold wrote:
>On Sat, 2008-02-23 at 17:16 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> I almost have this ready to go but I have a question about the
>> moderation of libc-alpha.  As far as I can tell, being a moderator means
>> getting every message that will be sent to the mailing list so that it
>> can be approved.  I can add extra people but should I keep Ulrich in the
>> list too?
>> 
>> Ulrich do you want to even see these messages?  If not, I'll remove you
>> as a moderator.
>
>Perhaps full moderation is only necessary for those who are not
>subscribed?

AFAIK, that is not what was asked for and it doesn't really answer my
question but, even if it was, it doesn't answer my question.

cgf

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Christopher Faylor]

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 10:02:33PM -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 07:01:11PM -0600, Ryan S. Arnold wrote:
>>On Sat, 2008-02-23 at 17:16 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
>>> I almost have this ready to go but I have a question about the
>>> moderation of libc-alpha.  As far as I can tell, being a moderator means
>>> getting every message that will be sent to the mailing list so that it
>>> can be approved.  I can add extra people but should I keep Ulrich in the
>>> list too?
>>> 
>>> Ulrich do you want to even see these messages?  If not, I'll remove you
>>> as a moderator.
>>
>>Perhaps full moderation is only necessary for those who are not
>>subscribed?
>
>AFAIK, that is not what was asked for and it doesn't really answer my
>question but, even if it was, it doesn't answer my question.

Urgh.  The above was supposed to be an English sentence.  Despite
appearances to the contrary, no actual verbs, nouns, adjectives, or
other parts of speech were harmed in the construction of that grouping
of words.

I am in the process of turning libc-alpha into a moderated mailing list
which means that every message has to be approved.  If that is not what
is required then I need to know.  And, I need to know if Ulrich wants to
be bothered with approving messages regardles of how this is set up.  I
suspect that he doesn't, but I'd like to be sure.

cgf

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Roland McGrath]

Ulrich does not want to see the libc-alpha moderation queue.  Ryan and
Carlos will be the moderators, and only they want to see this queue.
We will let you know if we have more people collaborating on the
moderators' work.  

My guess is that most likely it would be fine for subscribers not to
have their posts moderated.  But since libc-alpha subscription has
AFAIK not been selective, perhaps that is not so.  I will holding Ryan
and Carlos accountable for the manifest quality of the traffic that
gets through and the timeliness of the moderation process, and I'm
glad to delegate the decisions on how best to optimize those metrics
to those who have volunteered to keep them high.


Thanks,
Roland

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Ryan S. Arnold]

On Mon, 2008-02-25 at 19:28 -0800, Roland McGrath wrote:
> Ulrich does not want to see the libc-alpha moderation queue.  Ryan and
> Carlos will be the moderators, and only they want to see this queue.
> We will let you know if we have more people collaborating on the
> moderators' work.  
> 
> My guess is that most likely it would be fine for subscribers not to
> have their posts moderated.  But since libc-alpha subscription has
> AFAIK not been selective, perhaps that is not so.  I will holding Ryan
> and Carlos accountable for the manifest quality of the traffic that
> gets through and the timeliness of the moderation process, and I'm
> glad to delegate the decisions on how best to optimize those metrics
> to those who have volunteered to keep them high.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Roland

Roland,

If the mailing list interface is anything like others I have used Carlos
and I can blanket accept posts from certain developers.  Hopefully we
can live up to the expectations.

Ryan

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Christopher Faylor]

On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 09:50:07PM -0600, Ryan S. Arnold wrote:
>On Mon, 2008-02-25 at 19:28 -0800, Roland McGrath wrote:
>> Ulrich does not want to see the libc-alpha moderation queue.  Ryan and
>> Carlos will be the moderators, and only they want to see this queue.
>> We will let you know if we have more people collaborating on the
>> moderators' work.  
>> 
>> My guess is that most likely it would be fine for subscribers not to
>> have their posts moderated.  But since libc-alpha subscription has
>> AFAIK not been selective, perhaps that is not so.  I will holding Ryan
>> and Carlos accountable for the manifest quality of the traffic that
>> gets through and the timeliness of the moderation process, and I'm
>> glad to delegate the decisions on how best to optimize those metrics
>> to those who have volunteered to keep them high.
>
>If the mailing list interface is anything like others I have used Carlos
>and I can blanket accept posts from certain developers.  Hopefully we
>can live up to the expectations.

We use ezmlm:  http://sourceware.org/lists.html#what-software .

AFAIK, there is nothing like a "blanket accept".  However, you might
want to research what is available.

cgf

Re: Create a libc-help mailing list for the GNU Libc project.

[Carlos O'Donell]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> I am in the process of turning libc-alpha into a moderated mailing list
> which means that every message has to be approved.  If that is not what
> is required then I need to know.  And, I need to know if Ulrich wants to
> be bothered with approving messages regardles of how this is set up.  I
> suspect that he doesn't, but I'd like to be sure.

Chris,

Has there been any progress in converting libc-alpha to a moderated 
mailing list?

Cheers,
Carlos.
-- 
Carlos O'Donell
CodeSourcery
carlos@codesourcery.com
(650) 331-3385 x716