Re: Marketing Xconq?

Re: Marketing Xconq?

[Bill Macon]

>There is a new Windows build/install document called INSTALL-win.txt.

  I'll have to check this out.

> >Simple patch downloads to supplement the full install
> > should also be considered.
>Hmmm.... Maybe. I'll have to look at what the largest files are
>and how frequently they end up being changed. I'll think about it.

  Some (many?) potential Xconq players will want an update process to be as 
simple as possible.
>
> >    I've tried the recent download and it works somewhat, but there are 
>still
> > bugs and graphics problems.
>Bugs in the installer or Xconq?

  The install works fine.  Several of the scenarios I tried opened OK but I 
didn't get into playing them.  I wanted to pull up the old game I was 
working on about 2 years ago but had problems editting a couple of the .dir 
files which seemed to screw everything up.  img.dir wasn't loading right, 
and wouldn't load right for any of the other scenarios either until I 
reinstalled xconq.  Simple cut&paste didn't work, and even deleting my 
additions didn't fix the problem.  So I was doing something wrong and 
whatever it was affected the graphics also.  It isn't fair for me to say the 
bugs were with xconq itself, but I hit an obstacle regardless and decides to 
terminate.
>
>
>Similarly, I think Xconq could benefit from a reinforcements
>model, where forces simply appear at certain turns. However, like
>other ideas, I think most of these should wait until after 7.5 is
>released.

  I agree.  Get a polished 7.5 out on the street, hopefully with some 
updated documentation, and then proceed with major enhancements.

  FYI, I got into xconq about 2 years ago and tried to create a game based 
on Avalon Hill's Advanced Third Reich.  I got a beautiful map to work out, 
manually editted all the unit images to get counters and colors right, and 
managed to get some things to work OK.  But the combat models do not work 
for this type of game.  And unless you set up a 1942 scenario where everyone 
is already at war, there is no way to have neutral countries inactive until 
some event brings them into the war.  These were serious showstoppers for me 
and I moved on to other things, primarily Strategic Command by Battlefront 
which came out about the same time I was getting discouraged with xconq.  
Now the neat thing about Strategic Command is that it is ideally suited for 
an xconq-style game, where multiple sides are all active on a random map.  
That would be cool, and I'm interested in working on that one of these days. 
  Once everything settles down and 7.5 gets released.  :)

Bill

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RE: Marketing Xconq?

[Erik Jessen]

Brandon,

I think having an interpreted language (v. the current Lisp-format
datafile) would put Xconq way ahead of the competition (like ADC2 et
al).

Of course, this would mean adding the interpreter, and then translating
at least some of the existing games as test cases, plus defining how the
interpreter would interact, but one could see how powerful this would
be.

"if", "for", "while" statements are incredibly powerful...

ISTR that Perl has a module/docs on how to add a Perl interpreter onto
almost any C program.  Perl is OO (though in a weird sort of way, but
that's not such a bad thing).  Also, Perl has TCL support, so one could,
at least in concept, create a pop-up in Perl to either notify the user,
or to get input.

But, I'm no guru on these sort of things - there are a number of
languages (Python, Einstein, etc.) I've heard of, but know nothing
about.

Erik


-----Original Message-----
From: xconq7-owner@sources.redhat.com
[mailto:xconq7-owner@sources.redhat.com] On Behalf Of Brandon J. Van
Every
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 2:14 PM
To: xconq
Subject: RE: Marketing Xconq?

Eric McDonald wrote:
>
> > And so are most of your potential customers,
>
> I'm not sure that Xconq really has "customers".

A "customer" is anyone who makes a decision to try Xconq as opposed to
some other life activity.  The transactions potentially attainable from
the customer are:

0) they give a negative mention of Xconq to others
1) they give a positive mention of Xconq to others
2) they become regular Xconq players, and hence possibly tester guinea
pigs
3) they become Xconq developers

> Once Xconq 7.5 is ready, and if it looks stable and playable, I
> will probably send out some announcements to relevant newsgroups.
> (Unless of course Hans or Stan want to do it, since their
> contributions to the project have been so vast.)

What about marketing to potential developers, before any of this?  Seems
to me you guys could use a few more hands around here.  What about Xconq
might be appealing to a developer?  What would make it more appealing as
a development platform?


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.

Re: Marketing Xconq?

[Eric McDonald]

Hi Lincoln,

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Lincoln Peters wrote:

> It sounds like you're talking about random units being created at random
> places

Possibly, if the game designer thought it would fit the game.

> on the map for random sides

For random sides? That's an interesting thought, though game 
balance could be unduly influenced in this manner. 

>, although none of those are likely
> meant to be 100% random (e.g. it would be ridiculous for a nuclear bomb,
> owned by your opponent, to randomly appear next to *your* capital
> city!).

I don't think I mentioned randomness. But now that you bring it 
up, I must say that it has possibilities.... :-)

> I recall thinking that something like that might be interesting in
> bolodd.g: Every so often, an independent unit (perhaps goblins at low
> levels, with more powerful stuff as the game progresses) appears out of
> nowhere (but preferably in an area that nobody can see) and wreaks havoc
> with any non-independent units it can find.

Yes, this is more like what I had in mind. But also I was thinking 
that one could design semi-specific scenarios with reinforcement 
zones (countries being a good candidate for these), where each 
side is _guaranteed_ to get certain forces at regular intervals, 
but without the designer needing to create each unit that can be 
brought in. And as I mentioned earlier, some form of regular 
production could (but need not) accompany reinforcements.

Another possibility would be to reinforce based on territory held. 
This would go some way towards making a game such as Risk or 
Warlords (that Alan mentioned) more feasible on the Xconq engine.

>  Of course, I don't expect
> anything like that to become possible until well after 7.5.

Nor do I. To be honest, aside from possibly spiffing up the 
compound terrain effects that I put in awhile ago, I have entered 
a self-imposed feature freeze. My focus is on bug fixes, 
packaging, and documentation until 7.5 (are we shooting for a Dec 
25th release date, Hans? :-)

  Regards,
   Eric

Re: Marketing Xconq?

[Lincoln Peters]

On Mon, 2003-11-17 at 17:13, Eric McDonald wrote:
> Hello Eric,
> 
> On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Dr Eric Edward Moore wrote:
> 
> > Eric McDonald <mcdonald@phy.cmich.edu> writes:
> > 
> > > Similarly, I think Xconq could benefit from a reinforcements 
> > > model, where forces simply appear at certain turns.
> > 
> > Like the "appear" unit property?  It's used in gettysburg.g
> 
> Similar, but "appear" is a unit property, and not a unit-type 
> property. When I wrote the above remark, I wasn't really thinking 
> in terms of pre-built scenarios, but something more general, as an 
> alternative (or complement) to creation/building. But, yes, I will 
> concede that a reinforcements model does exist in the sense 
> that you mention.

It sounds like you're talking about random units being created at random
places on the map for random sides, although none of those are likely
meant to be 100% random (e.g. it would be ridiculous for a nuclear bomb,
owned by your opponent, to randomly appear next to *your* capital
city!).

I recall thinking that something like that might be interesting in
bolodd.g: Every so often, an independent unit (perhaps goblins at low
levels, with more powerful stuff as the game progresses) appears out of
nowhere (but preferably in an area that nobody can see) and wreaks havoc
with any non-independent units it can find.  Of course, I don't expect
anything like that to become possible until well after 7.5.

Re: Marketing Xconq?

[Eric McDonald]

Hello Eric,

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Dr Eric Edward Moore wrote:

> Eric McDonald <mcdonald@phy.cmich.edu> writes:
> 
> > Similarly, I think Xconq could benefit from a reinforcements 
> > model, where forces simply appear at certain turns.
> 
> Like the "appear" unit property?  It's used in gettysburg.g

Similar, but "appear" is a unit property, and not a unit-type 
property. When I wrote the above remark, I wasn't really thinking 
in terms of pre-built scenarios, but something more general, as an 
alternative (or complement) to creation/building. But, yes, I will 
concede that a reinforcements model does exist in the sense 
that you mention.

  Regards,
     Eric

Re: Marketing Xconq?

[Dr Eric Edward Moore]

Eric McDonald <mcdonald@phy.cmich.edu> writes:

> Similarly, I think Xconq could benefit from a reinforcements 
> model, where forces simply appear at certain turns.

Like the "appear" unit property?  It's used in gettysburg.g

-- 
Eric E. Moore

RE: Marketing Xconq?

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Eric McDonald wrote:
>
> > And so are most of your potential customers,
>
> I'm not sure that Xconq really has "customers".

A "customer" is anyone who makes a decision to try Xconq as opposed to
some other life activity.  The transactions potentially attainable from
the customer are:

0) they give a negative mention of Xconq to others
1) they give a positive mention of Xconq to others
2) they become regular Xconq players, and hence possibly tester guinea
pigs
3) they become Xconq developers

> Once Xconq 7.5 is ready, and if it looks stable and playable, I
> will probably send out some announcements to relevant newsgroups.
> (Unless of course Hans or Stan want to do it, since their
> contributions to the project have been so vast.)

What about marketing to potential developers, before any of this?  Seems
to me you guys could use a few more hands around here.  What about Xconq
might be appealing to a developer?  What would make it more appealing as
a development platform?


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.

Re: Marketing Xconq?

[Eric McDonald]

Hi Bill,

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Bill Macon wrote:

> take a look at it.  If you guys want to attract wargamers who are interested 
> in designing their own games, Wargamer is a good place to start.  I think 
> there's potential.

Yeah, I went over there and found your message(s). Thanks for 
giving Xconq a mention.

>    It's fair to mention that many gamers are using a Windows platform and 
> not Mac or Linux, so a Windows version is important. 

Right. That is why I have made some efforts regarding that 
platform.

> the Xconq user base.  Even I have had trouble figuring out CVS, so I don't 
> bother any more.  

There is a new Windows build/install document called 
INSTALL-win.txt. You might find the description of how to use 
WinCVS useful. (If you don't, please let me know what can be 
improved.)

>Simple patch downloads to supplement the full install 
> should also be considered.

Hmmm.... Maybe. I'll have to look at what the largest files are 
and how frequently they end up being changed. I'll think about it.

>    I've tried the recent download and it works somewhat, but there are still 
> bugs and graphics problems. 

Bugs in the installer or Xconq?

> And so are most of your potential customers, 

I'm not sure that Xconq really has "customers".

>so the sooner a clean v7.5 can 
> get completed and released the better.  Once that happens, marketing efforts 
> should be more effective.

Once Xconq 7.5 is ready, and if it looks stable and playable, I 
will probably send out some announcements to relevant newsgroups. 
(Unless of course Hans or Stan want to do it, since their 
contributions to the project have been so vast.)

> Xconq's appeal to traditional wargamers.  One is some way of providing 
> conditional events within the game, like If-Then statements.  There's no way 
> to simulate politics and diplomacy by having some sides or forces inactive 
> until something happens (declaration of war, surprise attack, specific 
> objective taken, etc.)

Similarly, I think Xconq could benefit from a reinforcements 
model, where forces simply appear at certain turns. However, like 
other ideas, I think most of these should wait until after 7.5 is 
released. There are still a number of bugs that must be addressed, 
in addition to documentation and miscellaneous improvements 
(Windows Xconq needs to be able to successfully be launched from a 
working directory that is other than its installation directory; I 
had hoped to address this over the past weekend, but other things 
came up. Also prefs.xcq needs to be renamed, now that .xcq is 
associated with Xconq savefiles. Etc, etc....)

  Regards,
    Eric

Re: Marketing Xconq?

[Bill Macon]

>do you guys make any effort to market Xconq?

   I mentioned a couple weeks ago that I posted a message on the forum at 
Wargamer.com.  Jim Cobb, one of the game reviewers, mentioned that he would 
take a look at it.  If you guys want to attract wargamers who are interested 
in designing their own games, Wargamer is a good place to start.  I think 
there's potential.

   It's fair to mention that many gamers are using a Windows platform and 
not Mac or Linux, so a Windows version is important.  Also, most gamers are 
not programmers and some are practically computer illiterate, so a simple 
complete download like Eric has developed will be most helpful for expanding 
the Xconq user base.  Even I have had trouble figuring out CVS, so I don't 
bother any more.  Simple patch downloads to supplement the full install 
should also be considered.

   I've tried the recent download and it works somewhat, but there are still 
bugs and graphics problems.  At least on WinMe that I'm still using, and I'm 
too busy with other things right now to spend time troubleshooting Xconq.  
And so are most of your potential customers, so the sooner a clean v7.5 can 
get completed and released the better.  Once that happens, marketing efforts 
should be more effective.

  There were two items I mentioned a long while back that would improve 
Xconq's appeal to traditional wargamers.  One is some way of providing 
conditional events within the game, like If-Then statements.  There's no way 
to simulate politics and diplomacy by having some sides or forces inactive 
until something happens (declaration of war, surprise attack, specific 
objective taken, etc.)  There are a lot of possibilities with this.  The 
other is some way of providing multiple unit attacks and standard combat 
results tables based on odds.  Like three units against one getting 3-1 
odds, or whatever when other factors are computed, and a "die roll" resolves 
the combat all at one time.  The current combat models do not lend 
themselves to doing this well.  So maybe with the newer Xconq programmers on 
the list now, someone can think about addressing these things.

Bill

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Marketing Xconq?

[Brandon J. Van Every]

This may sound like a bizzare question to you, and it's certainly
premature to my own agenda.  But I thought I would ask anyways... do you
guys make any effort to market Xconq?  Where by "market" I mean greatly
increase the number of Xconq players out there, the number of people who
know about it, who think favorably of it, get it reviewed on websites,
etc.  No money changing hands but promoting your brand "Xconq" is still
marketing.

What do you think the "market penetration" of Xconq is currently?  How
many players?  How many people know about it?  Have you ever tried to
measure these things?


Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

Taking risk where others will not.