public inbox for xconq7@sourceware.org
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: "Brandon J. Van Every" <vanevery@indiegamedesign.com>
To: "xconq" <xconq7@sources.redhat.com>
Subject: RE: Managing "Designers disgust".  RE: cheating
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:33:00 -0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <OOEALCJCKEBJBIJHCNJDIEDCGMAB.vanevery@indiegamedesign.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20031121090234.34227.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com>

From: Jakob Ilves [mailto:illvilja@yahoo.com]
>
> So, as a hobby hacker, by strongly handling future concerns
> one gets a win ONLY if one has strong
> immunity against the "designers disgust".  That is, being
> very (extremely?) patient and persistent.

I had 9 months' worth.  Then I broke.  At least the code I wrote is
solid - overengineered really.  It'll be there for me when I resume a
year from now.  But man, what a lousy way to handle one's morale.

> But what levels of patience is appropriate for a
> project is pretty much dependant on
> the people working on it, at least in the hobby programming
> area.

I think you have to provide exceedingly quick rewards to developers in
any arena where they're not getting paid.

> Some folks prefer to invest in
> managing multiple future concerns simply because they can
> afford it without running into
> "designers disgust".  They're patient enough.  In such
> environment, it's tough to make them change
> their minds to shift more of their focus on today's fetures
> because their current allocation of
> work on between current and future concerns are working for _them_.

"Masters of DOOM" by David Kushner is illustrative in this regard.  John
Carmack put his developers through *hell* as he was perfecting his
engine.  It was working for John's technological needs, it wasn't
working for other people's game design needs, and it tore the company
apart.

> If one isn't that patience an extreme solution for a hobby
> hacker can be to ignore future concerns
> alltogether in order to speed up short term development.
> That can lead to a horrible product
> implementation which is rewritten over and over again but it
> might on the other hand be written by
> a very amused developer.
>
> For that "pentahexahepta" thing I've lately been considered
> to do the latter.  Take all virtues
> like structured programmed, OO design, security and _LOCK
> THEM IN SOMEWHERE IN A CLOSET AWAY FROM
> ME_.

Yeah, if you *can* succeed in barfing out code in this way, it's a good
idea to do so.  Any working scaffold, however heinous, is better than
sitting around methodically planning without really cutting code.  The
risk of course is when the project does in fact require highly
structural discipline to pull off.  Some neato technologies, you can
just pull out of your ass by shoveling them.  Others, you really do have
to sit down and be an Architect / Disciplinarian.

I think Python is the right language for people who want to barf.  It's
a dynamically typed language, you don't get any more flexible than that!
In contrast, people who do C++ tend to "wax architectural" and get
sucked into optimizing their code.  They end up missing the forest for
the sake of the trees.  It's a disease I've had as a 3D graphics
optimization jock, and I've learned the very $$$$$ hard way to get away
from it.

I can't even fathom people willingly using plain C in 2003 without pay.
That mentality is utterly alien to me, there are far better and more
interesting programming tools available out there for free.  Python is
merely a common one that has nascent market momentum behind it.  I think
library, tools, community support, and proven real world use are all
valuable, so that's why I champion it.

> Just merrily produce that vomit of Perl code.

Yes, Perl is also an appropriate vomit language.  It's just that, I
don't think you can turn Perl into non-vomit afterwards.  But maybe Perl
is a moving target that I'm just not up on.

> Could be an intresting experience.  And likely to be a crime
> against all programming ethics ;-).

There are no ethics, only tradeoffs.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.

  reply	other threads:[~2003-11-21  9:30 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 47+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2003-11-17 15:42 Marketing Xconq? Bill Macon
2003-11-17 18:55 ` Marketing Xconq? + battle isle suggestion Andreas Bringedal
2003-11-17 22:04   ` better Windows UI Brandon J. Van Every
2003-11-18  3:12     ` Erik Jessen
2003-11-17 21:56 ` Marketing Xconq? Eric McDonald
2003-11-17 22:38   ` Brandon J. Van Every
2003-11-18  3:15     ` Erik Jessen
2003-11-18  3:39       ` New Interpreter (was RE: Marketing Xconq?) Eric McDonald
2003-11-18  4:01         ` Erik Jessen
2003-11-18  4:05           ` Eric McDonald
2003-11-18 10:37             ` setgid (was: RE: New Interpreter (was RE: Marketing Xconq?)) Lincoln Peters
2003-11-18 15:52               ` Jim Kingdon
2003-11-18  5:17       ` Python in Xconq Brandon J. Van Every
2003-11-18 11:33         ` Erik Jessen
2003-11-18 13:37           ` OT Python stuff (was RE: Python in Xconq) Mark A. Flacy
2003-11-19 15:08             ` Erik Jessen
2003-11-19 16:44               ` Bruno Boettcher
2003-11-19 17:58                 ` Eric McDonald
2003-11-19 21:18                   ` GDL, XML and others...Re: " Jakob Ilves
2003-11-19 23:13                     ` Brandon J. Van Every
2003-11-20  5:12                     ` Eric McDonald
2003-11-20  8:54                       ` Bruno Boettcher
2003-11-20 11:01                         ` Jakob Ilves
2003-11-20 11:19                           ` Brandon J. Van Every
2003-11-20 12:59                             ` Jakob Ilves
2003-11-20 13:54                               ` One Hex Combat Resolution, and jeweled teeth Brandon J. Van Every
2003-11-20 17:06                                 ` Eric E Moore
2003-11-20 17:37                                   ` Jakob Ilves
2003-11-20 17:47                                     ` Emmanuel Fritsch
2003-11-20 19:53                                     ` Eric E Moore
2003-11-21  2:16                                   ` Eric McDonald
2003-11-21  3:03                                     ` What is Python really good for? Brandon J. Van Every
2003-11-20 11:36                           ` GDL, XML and others...Re: OT Python stuff (was RE: Python in Xconq) Bruno Boettcher
2003-11-20  4:38                   ` Erik Jessen
2003-11-20 10:19                     ` cheating Brandon J. Van Every
2003-11-21  1:46                       ` cheating Eric McDonald
2003-11-21  2:32                         ` cheating Brandon J. Van Every
2003-11-21  9:30                           ` Managing "Designers disgust". cheating Jakob Ilves
2003-11-21  9:33                             ` Brandon J. Van Every [this message]
2003-11-21 12:36                               ` Jakob Ilves
2003-11-21 14:28                                 ` Brandon J. Van Every
2003-11-19 22:14                 ` OT Python stuff (was RE: Python in Xconq) Brandon J. Van Every
2003-11-20  3:10                 ` Erik Jessen
2003-11-18  1:13   ` Marketing Xconq? Dr Eric Edward Moore
2003-11-18  1:31     ` Eric McDonald
2003-11-18  2:34       ` Lincoln Peters
2003-11-18  3:11         ` Eric McDonald

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=OOEALCJCKEBJBIJHCNJDIEDCGMAB.vanevery@indiegamedesign.com \
    --to=vanevery@indiegamedesign.com \
    --cc=xconq7@sources.redhat.com \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).