From: Gregory Leblanc <GLeblanc@cu-portland.edu>
To: 'Norman Walsh' <ndw@nwalsh.com>,
docbook-tools-discuss@sourceware.cygnus.com
Subject: RE: I'm trying to set up docbook-tools...
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:36:00 -0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <A5F46F4ED18FD211ABEE00105AC6CF07010938C6@email.cu-portland.edu> (raw)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Norman Walsh [ mailto:ndw@nwalsh.com ]
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 2:43 PM
> To: docbook-tools-discuss@sourceware.cygnus.com
> Subject: Re: I'm trying to set up docbook-tools...
>
> / "Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com> was heard to say:
> | Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>:
> | > Second, I'm tired of your whining about the theology and
> jargon. I'm
> | > sorry if TDG didn't answer your questions, I'll try to do
> better next
> | > time (although I still think it's an authors prerogative to decide
> | > what is and what is not in scope), but I don't think it's either
> | > theological or jargon-filled.
> |
> | In this respect (if not in others), you and the other core DocBook
> | people who share this belief are still out to lunch. And
> that's sad,
> | because it seriously hinders the deployment of your good work.
>
> Moments after sending this message, I regretted making the assertion
> that it wasn't jargon-filled. That's nonsense and I knew better. (I
> really don't think it's theological, but if you do, I won't argue the
> point any further.)
>
> There's a definite tension when it comes to vocabulary and it bites
> very deeply in SGML, possibly because I'm familiar with it, although
> my intuition is that it bites deeply in SGML in part because it's
> worse in SGML than in many other jargons. 8879 was written by a lawyer
> after all :-)
>
> As I expressed earlier, perhaps badly: using the precise 8879
> terminology (which I don't claim to have done, in the interest of
> trying to fight this exact problem, even if you think I failed) is a
> way of describing things in a precise, technically unabiguous way.
> Alas, it comes at the expense of the poor reader who could care less
> about the distinction between a "tag" and a "generic identifier". The
> trouble is that using loose, informal terms eventually leads to
> confusion in those areas where it really makes a difference.
>
> Maybe I got the balance wrong. I could have done better.
I have to say that I've been reading this thread with a fair bit of
interest, since there are some huge holes in documentation for actually
doing useful things with DocBook. As for this jargon thing, I don't think
that there is ANY hope of being able to usefully write a Definitive Guide on
DocBook without a lot of fairly specific jargon. The terminology allows
things to be described much better than simply using proper English, or even
vernacular for the author and readers. The problem here, I think, is that
it's bloody hard to figure out which words mean what without working with it
for a good while. I've finally figured out what DSSSL is, and where all of
the pieces fit together, but it's NOT easy to do, and I don't think I'm an
idiot (which may or may not be relevant). DocBook: TDG is NOT a gentle
introduction to DocBook, or to writing using DocBook. It's a reference
guide, and as such, must use terminology suitable for people using a
reference guide. I don't recall finding a good glossary of SGML terms, or a
good flow-chart (doesn't anybody use them for anything anymore?) of how
publishing a DocBook document work anywhere that I looked. These two things
together would probably help clarify a lot of things for people getting
started with DocBook publishing.
> | So why didn't *you* figure one out this out two years ago?
> Why does
> | it take an outsider, jumping up and down and screaming, to point out
> | the obvious?
I have to say that while it may be obvious to you, it is NOT to some other
people. I happen to find the flow of most chemical equations totally
intuitive, whereas Norm probably finds the flow of taking a DocBook document
and turning it into HTML totally intuitive. You happen to have a different
point of view, and are able to see things that we may miss. Isn't that why
open sores works? Different viewpoints helping each other out, making for a
better end product.
Grego
next reply other threads:[~2000-12-27 6:36 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 107+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2000-12-27 6:36 Gregory Leblanc [this message]
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric Lee Green
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2000-12-27 6:36 Peter Ring
2000-07-07 2:27 ` Peter Ring
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric Lee Green
2000-12-27 6:36 Volker Paul
2000-12-27 6:36 Gregory Leblanc
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Mark Galassi
2000-07-04 15:44 ` Mark Galassi
2000-12-27 6:36 Peter Ring
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric Bischoff
2000-08-14 23:07 ` Eric Bischoff
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Volker Paul
2000-08-16 6:57 ` Volker Paul
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Norman Walsh
2000-08-16 7:30 ` Norman Walsh
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric Bischoff
2000-08-18 4:11 ` Eric Bischoff
2000-12-27 6:36 ` b_maddy_016
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric Bischoff
2000-08-18 5:55 ` Eric Bischoff
2000-12-27 6:36 Eric S. Raymond
2000-07-04 8:02 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Mark Galassi
2000-07-04 8:05 ` Mark Galassi
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-07-04 8:22 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Norman Walsh
2000-07-07 7:49 ` Norman Walsh
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Chuck Mead
2000-07-04 8:45 ` Chuck Mead
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Mark Galassi
2000-07-04 8:27 ` Mark Galassi
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-07-04 8:45 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric Lee Green
2000-07-04 10:25 ` Eric Lee Green
2000-12-27 6:36 ` David C. Mason
2000-07-05 7:41 ` David C. Mason
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Norman Walsh
2000-07-06 9:21 ` Norman Walsh
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Mark Galassi
2000-07-06 10:25 ` Mark Galassi
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-07-06 10:37 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Kendall Clark
2000-07-06 10:48 ` Kendall Clark
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Mark Galassi
2000-07-06 10:53 ` Mark Galassi
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric Lee Green
2000-07-06 13:38 ` Eric Lee Green
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Norman Walsh
2000-12-27 6:36 ` David C. Mason
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-07-06 11:59 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-12-27 6:36 ` David C. Mason
2000-07-06 13:55 ` David C. Mason
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric Lee Green
2000-07-06 14:32 ` Eric Lee Green
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-07-06 14:52 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-12-27 6:36 ` David C. Mason
2000-07-06 15:23 ` David C. Mason
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-07-06 15:52 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric Lee Green
2000-07-06 15:57 ` Eric Lee Green
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Edward C. Bailey
2000-07-06 16:05 ` Edward C. Bailey
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-07-06 16:46 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Norman Walsh
2000-07-07 7:49 ` Norman Walsh
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric S. Raymond
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Norman Walsh
2000-07-07 14:42 ` Norman Walsh
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Derek Simkowiak
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Mark Galassi
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric Lee Green
2000-07-06 14:22 ` Eric Lee Green
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Norman Walsh
2000-07-07 7:49 ` Norman Walsh
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Chuck Dale
[not found] ` <ndw@nwalsh.com>
2000-12-27 6:36 ` richard offer
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Norman Walsh
2000-07-07 7:49 ` Norman Walsh
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric Bischoff
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Norman Walsh
2000-07-28 10:44 ` Norman Walsh
2000-12-27 6:36 ` madhu
2000-07-04 22:01 ` madhu
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Eric Lee Green
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Sam Roberts
2000-07-05 7:40 ` Sam Roberts
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Ismael Olea
2000-07-05 9:57 ` Ismael Olea
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Mark Galassi
2000-07-05 9:59 ` Mark Galassi
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Norman Walsh
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Sam Roberts
2000-07-05 7:32 ` Sam Roberts
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Mark Galassi
2000-07-04 11:21 ` Mark Galassi
2000-12-27 6:36 ` Norman Walsh
2000-07-07 7:49 ` Norman Walsh
2000-12-27 6:36 David C. Mason
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