Re: I'm trying to set up docbook-tools...

["Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com>]

David C. Mason <dcm@redhat.com>:
> Your problem installing the tools seemed (as I read back through the
> thread) to be one of finding a mirror that was bad. Once you found a
> mirror which contained the RPMs needed are we to assume the
> installation went according to plan? 

Oh, no.  That wasn't my only problem by a long shot.  I actually went
through three different attempts to get three different sets of tools
running -- Jade, OpenJade, and the DocBook tools.  Not one of them had
adequate documentation for beginners, even technically sophisticated
beginners like me with considerable prior knowledge of SGML (I did a
lot of of extension work on SGML-Tools for the LDP).  All three have
web pages that are remarkable for the amount of detail they convey
without actually saying anything useful.

> Can all of this be improved for the newbie - it sure can. In fact new
> scripts or even applications can be written. You are a hacker, would
> you like to write them? Can I assume the answer is no?

Do you mean like the user's guide I once wrote for SGML-Tools to
address exactly this problem? :-)

Sorry, David.  You don't get to accuse *me* of carping without
contributing.  I happen to be the person who made SGML-Tools 1.1
usable for fast-turnaround book publishing, proved it by producing
"Linux Undercover" for Red Hat, and then documented what I did.  But
don't take my word for any of that -- go ask Ed Bailey about it.  You'd
probably find the story both entertaining and instructive.

> Slamming someone's book certainly cannot help you learn can it?

Slamming someone's book for lack of clarity certainly *can* be helpful
if it wakes the author (and the dysfunctional culture surrounding the
author) up to a problem.  

I did not mean to imply that Norman Walsh's book is without value.  If
I already knew most of what was in it, I'm sure it would make a dandy
reference.  But that's the problem -- the book is only useful for
people who already have a working SGML toolset and considerable
pre-acquired expertise.  

The fact that it was not useful to a person who had already done
substantial SGML publishing and extension work on SGML tools *should*
be an important message.

> I say 'kudos' to Norm for the following: 

I'll cheerfully say Norm is a wonderful guy too, if that will make you
or him feel any better.  He's done a lot of good things.   Unfortunately,
none of those things includes actually making SGML accessible to the
un-initiated. 

*And that is the issue here*.  The DocBook community has a huge blind spot.
The consequences of that blind spot drive away people like Eric Lee Green
or myself who would otherwise love to contrivbute more.
-- 
		<a href=" http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr ">Eric S. Raymond</a>

"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to
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purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and
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	-- John F. Kennedy